CelticsBlog

It was a big...

momentum changer as the Pats would of had a chance to score a touch down possibly and seal the game away.

Jeebus.

One dropped pass after another on this final drive.

welker lost the game

Karasu - February 5, 2012 reply

That was a pretty bad throw, though...

If Brady’s throw had been on target, the Pats win.

It wasn't perfect but it was VERY catchable.

That’s on Welker.

I did not see

Bradys pass and if it was a bad throw or not, but Welker should of had it I think also, but he just appeared to be out of position and twisted in a awkward position to catch the ball effectively.

Eh...

“Catchable” doesn’t mean “should have had it”. It would have been a pretty acrobatic catch.

If Brady makes a better throw to a wide open receiver, the Patriots win tonight. Don’t blame Welker for Brady’s bad throw.

Welker did his job: he got open.

You think getting open is his job?

That’s half the equation. Catching it is the other half. As Collinsworth said, that’s a ball Welker catches nearly every time. And I’m not blaming Welker for the loss, but that was a big play that got away. Can’t quite believe you’re describing that throw as so bad. It was a very catchable ball. That was clearly on Welker.

I've watched the play a dozen times...

Welker is wide open. A good throw, and that’s potentially a TD. Instead, Brady throws it to the wrong spot, and Welker is forced to contort his body in an attempt to make an awkward catch.

Sure, if you believe that a wide receiver should catch every ball that he can get a hand on, then blame Welker. However, if you think that it’s the QB’s job to put the ball in the right place and to make accurate throws, then blame Brady.

Why conflate my words?

I didn’t say a wide receiver should catch “every ball that he can get a hand on”. I said he should have caught THAT very catchable ball. You act like that was some kind of horrible throw, which it was not. Yeah it was not at his numbers, but rather by his head, and a catch, as Collinsworth rightly noted, was one that “Welker makes 100 times out of 100”. Might be hyperbole, but that’s a catch that Welker surely nearly always makes. It was not a horrible throw. What, you’re expecting perfect throws out of Brady on every throw, but cutting Welker huge slack? Where’s the logical consistency? It was a catch that Welker should have, and usually would make, even if the throw was not exactly perfect. It would not have required anything remotely like some circus catch.

The logical consistency...

… is that I don’t expect WRs to catch balls that are thrown behind them and where they have to contort their bodies acrobatically to even get their hands on it.

Welker is upset, because he got his hands on it, and because he’s a class act that would rather put the blame on his shoulders than blame a teammate. If it had been a good throw, though, it wouldn’t have taken a crazy effort for Welker to even come close to a catch.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d826acc09/Welker-drops-ball-in-space

Here's the play:

No way that would have been regarded as some contorted circus catch. It was not a perfect throw, but clearly very catchable. It’s right there for all to see.

Like I said, I've watched it a dozen times...

… and I stand by my assessment. If Brady makes a good throw — or even an average one — the Patriots win. Instead, he made a bad pass that unfortunately Welker is left to take the blame for.

It was a catchable ball. Clearly. Not a perfect ball. Just catchable.

Would not have required any sort of Plexico Burress miracle, nor even the sensation catch that the Giants player made tonight.

I freely admit that it was not a perfectly delivered ball, but it was clearly catchable, and Welker himself would tell you that he’d almost always make that play. If I were to honestly assign fault on the incompleted pass on that, I’d say maybe 30% Brady, 70% Welker.

I don't think some fans are appreciating...

… the difficulty of running full speed on a route, and then basically having to stop, rotate backward, and lunge for a ball.

Some fans are making it sound like the ball hit him in stride and it went through his fingers. Not true. He had to totally change his body positioning. I’d say that that’s a play that’s made well less than half the time in the league. The ball was high and thrown behind him. That’s not on Welker, no matter how many appeals to authority anyone makes.

The "appeals to authority" are really a sidebar

Repeating that it was a horrible pass when it was merely not a great pass makes it no more true no matter how many times repeated. It was eminently catchable. The video link is right above this. People make far more difficult catches than that in virtually every NFL game. Come on. Do you truly believe that that was THAT difficult a play to make?

Besides, on what you are calling appeals to authority

I’m merely pointing out that practically everyone saw it just as I did. You can denigrate the fact that I am pointing that out, but fact it is. Now maybe you have a clearer perception of that play than practically everyone who viewed it did. Seems unlikely.

And I love Welker, too. Great player, seems like a great guy and a great teammate. I feel badly for the guy, and definitely would want him on my team all day, every day. Doesn’t alter the fact that he blew that particular crucial play.

I’m sure there’ll be plenty of talk from all quarters on that play. It’ll be interesting to see the various perspectives. Here’s another early one: http://espn.go.com/blog/nfcwest/post/_/id/58792/turning-point-wes-welker-drops-the-ball

Mencius - February 6, 2012 reply

From Welker's own mouth:

— Wes Welker fought back tears as he discussed the pass he couldn’t hold late in the fourth quarter that would have given the Pats the ball at the Giants 20 with a 17-15 lead. “It’s one I’ll have to live with,” said Welker, who also said: “It’s a play I’ve made a thousand times.”

For the record, I love Welker as a player and feel really badly for him, but it’s just a fact that he dropped a pass he normally catches.

How about blaming Brady for missing a throw...

… that he not only makes regularly, but that every competent QB in the NFL makes regularly. Brady was the one who made that a difficult play, and ultimately, an incompletion.

Not that it should matter to you...

… but you’re on an island on this one. Clearly Welker is a tremendous player. He just blew that particular catch. Brady did not “miss the throw”. He threw a very catchable ball. Not a picture perfect ball, but certainly one that Welker almost always catches, as he himself would no doubt admit.

Read nearly every account of that play you can find on the net, and it’ll be described as the pass Welker missed or dropped, not of the throw that Brady botched. No skin off me if you want to insist that it was Brady’s fault.

Yeah, I couldn't care less about "being on an island"...

… although I’ve seen plenty of people who agree with me.

Seriously, you don’t think Brady missed the throw? You think that’s where he wanted to place that ball?

I’m surprised that Brady isn’t getting a little more blame (despite the deification of Saint Tom by many):

A bad intentional grounding penalty to gift the Giants two points and the ball;

A terrible interception on 1st-and-10 from the 43 yard line with the Pats up 17-15 in the fourth quarter;

That very poor throw to Welker.

Yes, he strung together 16 straight completions, and he looked good in the second and third quarters for the most part. However, early and late, Brady let the team down, and he’s probably the individual player most responsible for this loss.

The safety is entirely on Tom. So was the interception.

He also had his receivers drop balls, particularly towards the end of the game. He was not perfect tonight, but they probably would have won but for the key play we’ve been discussing.

No he's not

It was a poor throw by Brady. Period.

King Coebra - February 6, 2012 reply

Period. Because you say so, huh? LOL

I’ll grant you it wasn’t a great throw. What it was was a very catchable ball that should have been caught, as Welker would be the first to say (and in fact, has said several times over since the fact)? If you feel that what you believe is so because you say it is so, “period”, more power to you. You’ve successfully convinced yourself. We’ve all got opinions, and yours are as good as mine, to you. At the end of the day, what does it matter? I saw it one way. You saw it another.

Mencius - February 6, 2012 reply

Exactly

Y0ou admitted yourself it was a substandard throw. You were arguing that Roy was on an “island” by himself with regards to this issue. I can assure you he is not alone. And yes, because you insinuated that Roy was alone in his opinion on this matter I can quite definitively state that he is not. Period. Get over yourself.

King Coebra - February 6, 2012 reply

You're awfully fond of saying "period", as if that really settles things.

And yes, because you insinuated that Roy was alone in his opinion on this matter I can quite definitively state that he is not.

Big deal. The vast, vast majority of people think that though it was an imperfect pass, it was a very, very catchable pass that should have been caught, so call it a relative island then. I should get over myself because I saw it as an imperfect but very catchable pass, and I’m in the company of Wes Welker (and probably at least 90% of people who viewed the play) on the subject? No, I don’t think so, and I won’t be telling you to get over yourself either. I’d probably just suggest that you learn to make a compelling argument if you feel strongly enough about a subject, because simply adding “Period!” to the end of of your opinion as though that gives it some extra weight is pretty feeble.

In the end, people can view the same play and come to entirely different opinions about what caused its failure. I’m good with that.

Mencius - February 6, 2012 reply

Conratulations

Had you started your debate with a similar mentality then I would not have felt compelled to add my statement. However, that’s not the case. I could care less what your personal feelings are about me or my style of commenting. The reality is that Brady made a poor throw that could have been caught but was not. And the majority of people not viewing the play threw patriot colored goggles will tell you the same thing. Fortunately not all of us have fatheads and blow up dolls of Tom Brady on our walls and ceilings and are capable of seeing Brady for what he is, a rapidly aging, immobile and imperfect QB who hasn’t won a ring since the 2004.season.

King Coebra - February 7, 2012 reply

Fortunately not all of us have fatheads and blow up dolls of Tom Brady on our walls and ceilings and are capable of seeing Brady for what he is, a rapidly aging, immobile and imperfect QB who hasn’t won a ring since the 2004.season.

The above is pointless ad hominem drivel.

I’m just going to leave it at this once more:

In the end, people can view the same play and come to entirely different opinions about what caused its failure. I’m good with that.

We’re pretty much at an agreement on the specifics when you say:

The reality is that Brady made a poor throw that could have been caught but was not. And the majority of people not viewing the play threw patriot colored goggles will tell you the same thing.

It wasn’t a great throw, but it wasn’t horrible, and certainly one that should have been caught. I’d disagree about how most people who aren’t Patriots fans viewed the play, but whatever. I pretty much don’t care at this point. Listen, sports, along with religion and politics elicit strong emotions and feelings, from which come strong declarative statements, such as “It was so and so’s fault”. At the end of the day, the game’s over, Welker’s still a good dude, who I’d take on my team any day, and this pointless quibbling about who viewed the play through the correct lens is ultimately pointless. The emotion and disappointment of the immediate aftermath of the play and game are over.

People think whatever it is that they think about the play and never the twain shall meet, and that’s fine.

Mencius - February 7, 2012 reply

I feel ill...

the game was right there for the taking and it slipped away.

So So close….this is going to hurt for awhile.

I feel ill to...

It’s gonna hurt having to hear about this, on and on and on…

forever_green - February 5, 2012 via mobile reply

ugh

Jeff Clark - February 5, 2012 via iPhone app reply

Ugh is right..

The pats losing one Superbowl a few years ago was painful enough, but to now lose 2 in a row and to the Giants again is unbearable.

Something I hate...

When there’s five minutes left in the game and you go to a 4 corners offense on first downs (running on first down to try to run the clock down with 4 or 5 minutes to go) instead of staying aggressive. That’s way too early to start that.

With only a 2 point lead, that seemed dumb because the Pats are not a grind it out team.

Congradulations Pats fans on a hard fought game

Seriously, these two teams always come down to the last minute. It’s unbelievable.

But I am a very happy man right now!

KG's Knee - February 5, 2012 reply

Hey my fellow Celtic brothers...

Why does this loss remind me of the 2010 NBA Finals Game 7 again?

SparzWizard - February 5, 2012 reply

Agree..

todays Pats game feels like that Celtics game 7 loss.

Maybe because the game and championship was in reach and only minutes away only to see both slip away.