I'm a bit of a broken record these days, but I'm going to keep on preaching until I convert you all or get proven wrong. This team has no reason to "blow it up." None.
The facts (as I see them) are these:
1. This team still has an outside shot at doing something in the playoffs.
2. Even if they don't, they are set up well to start over in the summer and start the rebuild process then.
3. Most of the trades that you could come up with right now, you could still make in the offseason - except without the players. For example, instead of trading Ray Allen for a guy making $10M a year, you could let Allen walk and trade a bag of balls for that same $10M per year guy because that's what you can do when you have cap room.
But putting all those facts aside. Say you really, really can't wait the extra few months and you have to get rid of the heart and soul of this team. What would you be looking for in return? Most likely you'd want first round draft picks, right?
Ok folks, let us do an experiment. Let's ask bloggers of other teams if they'd be willing to trade us first round picks for our aging stars. I did just that this week and here's a sampling of the responses I got.
First you have the lottery teams that would be foolish to hand over draft picks for aging vets.
Seth Pollack of Bright Side of the Sun
It makes no sense for the Suns to give up any young or future assets for more older players. That means you shouldn't rule it out.
Conrad Kaczmarek of Fear The Sword
Kyrie Irving for the corpse of Kevin Garnett, who says no?
(I say no, this is my way of saying that Cavs want none of your old guys unless you're willing to simply take back Luke Harangody in exchange.)
Amar of SLC Dunk (Utah)
A number of Jazz fans want to give up the future so they can rent Ray Allen for a year, and perhaps ruin Rondo's career by putting him on a team w/o any shooters.
If you don't understand sarcasm when you see it, then you'll appreciate Adam of RaptorsHQ's much more direct response.
While the Raptors could really use the all-around play of Pierce, the perimeter shooting of Allen, and the defense and leadership, and drive of KG, this is a team that's in the beginning stages of a rebuilding effort, and SORELY needs young, blue chip talent. Therefore it would take an offer of a Blake Griffin or similar young stud, for the Raptors to move their lottery pick, which at present could easily end up in the top 5, and that takes the Celtics "big 3" out of any such conversation.
Next, let's move on to the contenders. Those teams could use guys like the Celtics have, but they are typically in the same position we are. They don't want to add aging stars at the expense of the future. Besides, whatever first round pick they'll have is going to be very late in the night on draft night.
LJRotter of Mavs Moneyball
The Mavs see no reason to get rid of any of our old guys for any of your old guys.
Steve Perrin of Clips Nation
The point is moot in the case of the Clippers, since the Celtics already own their 2012 first rounder (assuming the Clippers stay out of the top ten in the lottery, which seems relatively safe, but I'm not jinxing it by not mentioning the possibility). Would you be willing to send over Ray Allen or Paul Pierce retroactively for that pick? Seems only fair.
If the Clippers had a first rounder, given that it would seem to be somewhere in the 20s, I think they might consider it. But the point is moot. Moot I say!
And perhaps the most "promising" comment came from Matt from Blog-a-Bull.
Ray Allen would be of most interest to the Bulls, but preseason they kinda went in on Richard Hamilton, and thus are technically 'set'. It's likely Allen is the much better bet, but they can't really pull the plug on Hamilton when he's barely played (though maybe that's WHY they should pull the plug) and give up assets to do so.
Also, the Bulls 1st rounders are either worthless, or their protected future first from Charlotte which they're holding on to as a, ahem, lottery ticket.
So there you have it. Nobody responded that they would give up a first rounder for any of our stars. And if you can't get that, what's the point? I rest my case. Ride it out. By all means look for sweetheart deals if you can find them, but don't hold your breath and don't sell our stars for deeply discounted prices just for the sake of selling.
1 recs | 73 comments
+ 10000
bopna - February 19, 2012 via mobile
Common sense is hard to handle when fans are in panic mode.
lygafe - February 19, 2012
+1
Speak it!
C'sFanfrmNy - February 19, 2012
+1
mmmmm - February 19, 2012 via iPhone app
Agreed - finish out the year
I totally agree Jeff. Let the big three finish the year and start with a clean slate of cap space and draft picks.
The only difference yielded by blowing it up is a more sour ending to the current big 3 era. I would assume top free agents considering the Cs this offseason want to come to a place that is committed to winning but also loyal to the players that helped them win.
jv_squad - February 19, 2012 via mobile
Yep
at this point, it’s the way to go. My expectations for this season were not especially high to begin with, quite honestly.
Great Gatsby - February 19, 2012
The Bulls get a lottery pick from Charlotte? How do we get that!?
Or was that sarcasm?
Surely they would take Pierce+Ray for that pick to get them over the hump for the next 2 years? Heck we could throw in one of our first round picks as well.
Give them anything but Rondo for that pick?
Chambers - February 19, 2012
They’d have to give Boston back 25 million in salaries as well to match Pierce/Allen.
They dont have it in guys they’d give up to make a deal.
So no, surely they wouldn’t/couldn’t do that.
mcpickl - February 19, 2012
From the Ty Thomas trade, I'm guessing
Although the Bulls should have taken Aldridge, hindsight being 20/20. They might luck into a good young big man to pair with Rose for the next decade.
TripleOT - February 20, 2012
no panic here
I wish I had the kind of optimism for this team that some here do. I don’t see anything other then either a first round blow out or a trip to the lottery wit this team as it currently stands. The starting five with the exception of Rondo is just too old to compete with the better teams in the NBA.
In my case at least there is no panic so saying anyone who feels like this team’s run is over isn’t in panic mode. IMO I am realistic. I don’t believe anyone who thinks this team can do damage in the post season is very realistic to be quite honest. I think people who are clinging to the hope of one last run with the geriatric set are dreaming.
CelticsFanNC - February 19, 2012
Oh....forgot
I agree with much of everything Jeff said except we can do damage in the post season. I think it is probably best to just ride it out and the only "marquee guy it makes sense to deal now is Pierce due to his current level of play and how much we are paying him over the next two years. Let Ray and KG play out their contracts.
CelticsFanNC - February 19, 2012
My reply was too late
We are on the same page. :)
jv_squad - February 19, 2012 via mobile
If they don't finish as # 6 seed...
One and done!
Great Gatsby - February 19, 2012
I don’t have any hope for this year either with the current squad or in a feeble attempt to “blow it up”. I share Jeff’s realistic view that we might as well stay the course since we can’t get anything to help us now or in the long term with out current assets. My belief is that blowing it up would actually make things worse for the team’s image.
jv_squad - February 19, 2012 via mobile
That's what the bloggers say
What the GMs say is a different thing.
relja111 - February 19, 2012
and really?
Clippers? contenders?
relja111 - February 19, 2012
Danny may indeed come to the same conclusion.
But fortunately he won’t do it by surveying other teams’ bloggers.
clover - February 19, 2012
hey
I represent that remark
LOL
Jeff Clark - February 19, 2012 via iPhone app
Ha ha!
clover - February 19, 2012
So, what you're saying
is that nobody wants these guys. Won’t even swap a pair of old worn out shoes for them—-but they have an outside chance to win a championship?
OhioGreen - February 19, 2012
yup
Jeff Clark - February 19, 2012 via iPhone app
Ray
Jeff, I disagree with you and your bloggers. I think Ray can be traded and is the most marketable asset of the Big 3. He’s still one of the best, if not be best shooter in the NBA. He also has an expiring contract so there’s no long-term commitment. A contender who needs outside shooting would kill to get him. I think getting a 1st rd pick for him is well within reason. Yes we’d probably have to take back some salary, but hopefully that team would have an expiring contract as part of the deal.
badax33 - February 19, 2012
I love to read.....
the posts on here that suggest we send a draft pick, a bench player, and 4 bottles of Dr. Pepper to ORL for DH or let’s trade Rondo and get a good PG. GET SERIOUS. Ride the season out and see what we can get with the big bucks we’ll have after KG and Ray come off the books. I would consider trading or amnestying PP if it’s true we can rework his contract. I am a big PP fan, but not at that price for two more years. Offer KG/Ray much cheaper deals, see if we can keep Bass at a decent price, look at Green if his health is OK, and then go young. I think a lot of fans honestly believe we just swap out a few players and keep right on being contenders like we used to be. It’’ called RE- building for a reason.
CelticsUKfan - February 19, 2012
Not speaking for Jeff, but....
Who knows what happens in the playoffs? What if Rose still has back issues? What if LeBron goes down like Rondo last year? What if our vets start playing with pride and it comes together at that right moment. We still think KG is intense, we still think Ray can shoot lights out when he’s on……. because we are Celtic fans. Maybe other fans/coaches/bloggers don’t see that.
CelticsUKfan - February 19, 2012
it's sad really.
If only the big three could make some kind of splash in the playoffs, enough to convince Dwight Howard that we’re not the old farts everyone writes us off as, and to come here, we’re looking at two more championships. He would simultaneously solve our rebounding issues and our Rondo not having another set of fresh legs on the starting unit to run with issues. A perfect fit. DH12 would single-handedly make up for any of our aging Corey’s shortcomings.
Mikey Bizzle - February 19, 2012 via iPhone app
I think Dwight got that message....
When these old farts kicked his butt two games in a row holding them to 50 something points and coming back from down 27 points.
Little ticket - February 19, 2012
It's really simple
Danny’s job is easy.Field the calls and make the logical moves.You might still trade one of the big 4 and be better now.Ray for a big might help us now.Not likely,I agree.Trade Rondo and a bunch of stuff for Howard and hope Deron Wms comes here IF DH stays.Not likely.
Chances are Danny has few if any options to deal for future help or help now with what we have.He is more forced to wait, not that he’s turning down a ton of deals.
Motown - February 19, 2012
just remember 2010
How many we’re saying blow it up then too. Just a few min short of a banner.
Jeff Clark - February 19, 2012 via iPhone app
The difference is
the core of this team is now 2 years older, and more than likely KG and Ray won’t be coming back. Next year will be a rebuilding year. If your in the camp that thinks the C’s can win it all this year, you don’t blow it up. However, if like me, you don’t think they will win it all this year, blow it up and get in the lottery.
Lloyd Christmas - February 19, 2012
My only argument against this post...
Is that by trading away players like Allen, Pierce, KG, etc… this team will surely fade into the draft lottery. Picking in the top 11 this year, is no small factor. This is suppose to be one of the strongest drafts in recent memory, strong with big men we sorely need. If you truly believe, as I do, that this team is not going to win a championship this year, getting in the lottery will be key in the rebuilding process.
Lloyd Christmas - February 19, 2012
I just can’t get behind a tanking strategy when there’s still a punchers chance of competing
Jeff Clark - February 19, 2012 via mobile
Yes, as currently constructed they do have a "punchers chance".
But, how realistic is that chance? Even in our current state, we’re just holding onto the 7 seed, with NY on our heels. And this is after having a nice run of home games so far. With Miami and Chicago playing at such a high level, I cannot see the C’s getting past either of them.
Lloyd Christmas - February 19, 2012
let me put it this way
we have a better chance at competing than we do at landing an impact player in the draft by tanking
Jeff Clark - February 19, 2012
Considering the strength of this years draft class.
I respectfully disagree.
Lloyd Christmas - February 19, 2012
fair enough
cheers
Jeff Clark - February 19, 2012
Adjust their current position for difficulty of schedule and they'd be out of the playoffs altogether at this point.
clover - February 19, 2012
+1
dslack - February 19, 2012
I agree. As it stands, we're in No-Man's Land
Too good to secure a meaningful draft pick, but not good make it out of the 2nd round (honestly, we may not even make it out of the first round). What we are right now, is a middle of the pack team. So do we stick with it and hope for every conceivable thing to go perfectly right in the playoffs? Even then its a crapshoot. The odds are stacking up more and more against us with each day. So I certainly hope we do something that may help us down the road.
Honestly, I think we may be better off taking a gamble on a “headcase” type of player – i.e. OJ Mayo, Michael Beasley, etc. whether its now or in the offseason is the question.
RJ87 - February 19, 2012 via mobile
Lottery Picks are great
If the Celtics make trades soon, the odds of making the playoffs is smaller and thus they have a pretty good shot at getting into the lottery and you never know what might happen. I mean what if the Celtics win the lottery and get Anthony Davis. I know the odds of that are small, but honestly they are probably more likely than the Celtics winning the championship.
Also, anything of value is better than nothing. The Celtics get absolutely nothing if they let Ray, KG, and JO expire this summer, so if you can get anything of value at all for them, it is better than not moving them.
Moranis - February 19, 2012
Risk in everything
Tank now and who’s to say we don’t end up the 8 seed anyway?
Or if we get a lottery pick odds are low that it will be high
And finally all draft picks are a risk
Jeff Clark - February 19, 2012 via mobile
Yes all draft picks are a risk.
But if the only risk is tanking a season that isn’t going to go anywhere anyway, how much risk is there? High draft picks are one of the best ways to procure top talent. No big time FA’s are linked to Boston. And the current roster(outside of Rondo), has little to offer to teams for top talent. So if you aren’t interested in gaining a high draft pick, what is your suggestion for next years rebuild?
Lloyd Christmas - February 19, 2012
Tanking.....
Situation completely different than the last time.
I think if they tank with a veteran roster they so alienate the fans that they might not get them back.
Blow it up completely before the trade deadline or play to win every game.
No in between.
Finkelskyhook - February 19, 2012
Also read my 3rd point above. We lose nothing by letting the season play out.
Jeff Clark - February 19, 2012 via mobile
Agree
This team is a player or two away from being contenders, or even being champions again this season. So why blow it up? Season games are way different from playoff games. You see the Spurs last season? Not very Celtic if we concede immediately without even fighting.
ball is green - February 19, 2012
The best and the most unlikely scenario
Play out the year with the team we have. Talk Howard and Williams into signing here by telling them the Celts can put out an all star team next year by signing Ray and Kevin and keeping PP. We trade Rondo for the best player possible regardless of position. Lastly we fill in with the two lottery picks. I enjoy dreaming of great possibilities.
ramana - February 19, 2012
Meant to say two draft picks
ramana - February 19, 2012
Strong case for letting it ride this season--good post
lol at the DA caption
mjtig - February 19, 2012
Agree
Hanging together for one final playoff round-up is best option. A “puncher’s chance” is what it is except we aren’t punchers. We have daggers – Ray from the corner, Pierce on the step back, KG’s hand in the last pass lane. Our bench is good, our PG very good and starting to make his FTs and the Big 3 (plus JO) know too that this is the last round-up. Super motivation. Doc, keep them healthy to the playoffs and then let’s roll.
That beats any other scenario out there
Wildblu1 - February 19, 2012
One scenario I can imagine
is a deal with Dallas who, as Simmons pointed out in his last podcast, are in a weird position of trying to compete this year and maximize cap room for the offseason (to make a run at a Williams and Howard combo). They apparently need to move Marion to do it and so might be convinced to throw in assets like Beaubois and a pick to swap him for Allen, whose combination of being very productive and having an expiring deal fit Dallas’ needs pretty nicely.
Tugboat - February 19, 2012
then you’re stuck with Marion on your cap for two more years just to get a backup guard and a pick in the late 20s.
I’d rather let Ray walk for nothing.
mcpickl - February 19, 2012
all heart...
that has always been my perception of this team, i am glad that many here still share the view of keeping the team and put up one more gallant stand, definitely it doesn’t assure anything but at least it keeps the team in a proper perspective towards loyalty, faith and the celtics brand of perseverance…i am very positive that we can pull the rug from one of ’em favorites…
greenlion - February 19, 2012
You don't have to convert me
I’ve felt the same as you all along, and I have a bit of a hard time with change anyway.
34green - February 19, 2012
What do you mean by an outside chance? 100 - 1, 1000 - 1?
I would put their chances of winning it all at 100-1 or more. However, if he has to let it ride this year, fine. LIkely a 7th or 8th seed, a first round and out, then let the fun begin.
vinnie - February 19, 2012
Nothing at all surprising about any of the other teams' responses.
The only way Danny does something is if a contender is willing to give up an expiring and a 1st (or young inexpensive asset with promise, as opposed to the first, in essence, like a first), acknowledging that the first would be a late first rounder, because no team will give up an upper tier first for a rental of our ancient former stars, and I can’t think of one team that’d be a fit as a trading partner to get that done. As noted by the blogger responses, younger, developing teams have zero interest in giving up young assets/draft picks for our over the hill gang, so this is a season to simply watch and enjoy it for what it is. As to our on court prospects; no chance we get by Chicago or Miami, which is no crime. Neither can probably 27 other teams.
The rebuild begins in earnest this off-season.
Mencius - February 19, 2012
and an expiring and a first from a contender
Really isn’t worth much. We already have cap room and with three picks we are already setup to have six players under 23.
mmmmm - February 19, 2012 via iPhone app
It was never possible to "blow it up" on demand
You have to have trading partners and the right deals, and those aren’t there just because you want them to be. I think Danny is ready and willing to make ANY DEAL that makes this team better, at any time. There’s just nothing out there that makes sense now. If that changes… well, anything is possible. Holding your breath is not advised.
JR99 - February 19, 2012
I love everything about this article .....love it! but...the picture of JO and Danny....two of my favorites...sarcasm!!!!
Master Po - February 19, 2012
lol
do I at least get points for the caption?
thanks PO
Jeff Clark - February 19, 2012
ok...I am only giving you two points....no need to give you more points that JO can score in one game
Master Po - February 19, 2012
Was the explained sarcasm for the former, namely,loving the article, or the latter- JO and Danny? Try to be clearer please.
lygafe - February 19, 2012
+100 Jeff!
I’ve been saying this all along. The reality is KG, RA or PP aren’t desirable trade pieces. I don’t see why teams with younger talent and pieces would want aging stars, that are likely to retire after this season or 2. I could see contending teams like Miami, Chi, Indy, LAC, Denver, OKC wanting the Big 3 services, but what would they be willing to offer up, not much I assume.
Sadly fans will have to be patient with this season’s Jekyll & Hyde Celtics. Hope they make it to the playoffs and make noise. I think Danny should try his hardest to get an athletic rebounder without a major move. In the meantime the Celtics need to man up and start playing with a sense of urgency doesn’t matter if age plays a factor, because if that is the case, then the Big 3 should of retired before the season started.
C'sFanfrmNy - February 19, 2012
Makes sense to rebuild after this season. Can’t go another season with aging stars doesn’t make sense. I do believe the rebuilding process will take a few season because superstars like KG, PP and RA are rare and hard to replace, sorry C’s fans.
C'sFanfrmNy - February 19, 2012
Except of course if Danny decides he'd rather have two years of his cap space than two years of his captain--
in which case anything that doesn’t clog the cap space in return would be gravy.
clover - February 19, 2012
Agree with you Jeff
I Agree you have to let this play out. Our core players deserve that much also.
forever_green - February 19, 2012 via mobile
Play it out
but the day they’re mathematically eliminated from the playoffs bench (“rest”) the vets and play nothing but the guys who may be useful for the future. Get them some run, see who’s a legit keeper, and then draft well.
spinetingler - February 19, 2012
You know what I´d love to hear?
Alternatives.
Whenever someone says “Blow it up”, the immediate question is “For what?”. People want specifics.
So, if we agree that this team will look differently next year, and you make a definite statement that “blowing it up” doesn´t make sense, I´d like to hear specifics, too.
What are your suggestions on how to rebuild next summer? Don´t give me the “use our cap space wisely” wishy-washy, everyone has to do that, give me a specific, realistic idea. Let us talk about how long our rebuilding will take with this specific idea compared to a startegy of accumulating assets and tanking for a higher Draft Pick this year.
I´m sorry, but a blogger´s opinion on what they would do is pretty meaningless to me in this case. A year ago, you could´ve asked most bloggers here if they would trade Perk for Green. Krstic and a first, and most would´ve said “no way”. Doesn´t mean it can´t happen. I think the idea that there are no trades out there is nonsensical. The NBA is a closed system, someone is always paing “too much”, there are always trade possibilities if you´re willing to take a bad contract in return.
Casperian - February 19, 2012
among other things, it´s “strategy” and “paying”.
grml
Casperian - February 19, 2012
basically I'm saying take whatever ideas people have now, and delay them a few months
wanna trade for Josh Smith? fine, do it in the offseason
wanna trade Rondo for a few pieces, fine, do it in the offseason
because option A is always going to be “throw money at Dwight Howard”
and if/when that fails, go with options B through Z in the offseason
that’s about as specific as I can get without knowing who is going to be on the market in a few months
Jeff Clark - February 19, 2012
This is what will happen "if"
Ainge is waiting for trade assets because that is what he has done in the past. If he can’t get what he believes will result in a superstar down the road, then he won’t do it.
We know how he got KG…Ainge had trade assets and McHale was “under pressure.”
It is about Celtics ownership and money. To win, the team needs stars…any combination necessary to compete.
Ainge looks at Heat, OKC, Bulls, Clips and figures out how to beat them. These teams are pretty big, somewhat young and very athletic. Ainge must match the competition any way he can. If the opportunity comes this season he will move, if not, he will stand pat.
If he thought tanking for draft picks was the best way he certainly would. He is responsible for a company that is worth 100’s of millions of dollars. As we stand now, doesn’t look like he will choose the “tank” option.
The blow up discussion is driven by individual team circumstances over the next 3 weeks. Any deal he does may merely mean he is obtaining an asset for another deal.
Perkins for Green….when he did the deal was he thinking Green plus Rondo for CP? He most certainly was as that was his next move.
Some of these crazy ideas like Rondo for Gasol are interesting because if the deal did happen, it would be to flip Gasol and others for Howard….which is why the deal was jive because LA wants Howard…duh.
Lakers are an example of a trade partner as they are UNDER PRESSURE. Been getting smoked by the Clips and rest of west looks tough…(couldn’t happen to a bunch of nicer guys). Will they deal with Ainge? They need Paul and or Rondo…would Ainge deal? Of course he would if he thought it would help compete with the top group of teams. Do I think there will be a deal with LA? No.
Thanks for the post. You may be right that the team will be intact for the season. You will only be right if Ainge does not see an opportunity to help build us a winner.
tstorey1 - February 19, 2012
banner 18. ain't. happening.
Ah — playoffs? Don’t talk about — playoffs? You kidding me? Playoffs? I just hope we can win a game! Another game.
Still, points 2 and 3 above are where the beef really is.
Gabby Hartnett Where are You? - February 19, 2012
I agree except
There ARE teams that have some young assets that are making a playoff run. Denver, Memphis, NY, and even Minnesota could use PP or RA(who may resign if a good fit), Bass, etc. Memphis and Denver have so many young wings that swapping for RA could be a good gamble— Pierce in minny could help their team (young too) and we could get value from them. Not sure about salary issues… so I may way off. But I do believe there are players out there who could give us some speed and ball-handling (drives) that we lack now. And none of the players that could be available would cost us a bunch. It would be nice to see Rondo with two wing flyers for half a season… might tell us a lot.
P stoff - February 19, 2012
There are always contenders who think that someone like Ray Allen
is the missing piece, and are willing to pay something for him. For example, the Clips would probably give up Bledsoe with Gomes and Cook for trade ballast for Ray Allen. The Cs don’t need another young PG, but if they could get a third team that needed one and was willing to give up another rookie scale guy that they’ve soured on, a deal could be had. Like Sacto and JJ Hickson, for example.
It’s highly unlikely that a contending team is going to give up a first unless the Cs take a non-expiring garbage contract back for Ray, and even then, that pick is going to be bottom 4th of the draft, anyways.
The Cs are in a tough spot. They will have cap room next year by moving on from KG and RA, but just enough for one max guy and one small deal. They’re probably going to try to keep Jeff Green, so they will only have money for one max guy, and since there’s only one max guy they want, the Cs have to decide to keep the caproom for the unlikely possibility that Howard signs here, or be left with a lost season when he doesn’t, with either a substandard roster or KG and RA on one year deals as they wait for the next FA class.
TripleOT - February 20, 2012
If not blow up...
What would be so bad about trading Ray Allen and, um, hoping we “improve” our own draft position? I hate to use the word “Tank,” but I would welcome an opportunity to draft higher than No. 15, even in a deep draft. Obviously we have better shot near the lottery than do the Clippers (how times change), but that said, no sense in wasting time on earning the No. 7 or 8 seed and hoping for the best this season. Thoughts?
Big_Easy - February 23, 2012
You must Login with your SB Nation account and be a member of CelticsBlog to post a comment.