At first glance Greg Stiemsma doesn't seem like a player who would create a stir every time he comes within ten feet of a basketball court. But there is a "buzz" when Stiemsma steps on to the parquet floor of the TD Garden, and most other NBA courts it seems. To look at him, there is nothing particularly amazing about Stiemsma in a basketball sense. His height (6' 11") would be incredible dinner conversation for the average person, but in a world where 6'3" means "average point guard height", that isn't as overly impressive as it could be. Despite this overall normalcy, Stiemsma has taken on a Bunyan-esque sense of mythology surrounding him. This happens every so often to select players. The difference with Stiemsma and those other players who were turned into seldom-seen demigods by the fans, is that Stiemsma might just have enough skill to contribute regularly.
I am sure by now that the reader has figured out what I am referring to, when I say that Stiemsma is "a fan favorite" who is "different". Yes, Greg Stiemsma is whiter than death's light. He's a former D-League Defensive Player of the Year, and has raised the relevance of the blocked shot for the first time since Ben Wallace swatted shots with his afro in Detroit. He also has shown the ability (at least for one game) to hit a baseline jump shot and spread the floor. He's basically everything his modern Caucasian mythical predecessors were not.
The reason why Stiemsma garnered so much attention initially was because of his skin color. There aren't many American born white NBA players anymore, and most of them become the bearded lady of their team. They are given double-takes, cheered boisterously when they do something correctly, and usually possess some kind of unfortunate facial hair (Behind door number one -- Adam Morrison!). The Celtics, like most long-standing NBA teams, have had a history with talented white players (Bird, Cousy, Havlicek, McHale, etc, etc). Eventually, that kind of died out, and the white American basketball player became an anomaly. Luke Harangody, was given mild attention in Boston but failed to live up to the romantic towel-waving phenomenon of his predecessor, Brian Scalabrine.
Scalabrine recently had his name chanted, again, as the Chicago Bulls were blowing out the Memphis Grizzles on New Years Day. Blowouts are the rare instances that Scalabrine sees the court anymore, and he saw six minutes during the Memphis game. Why were people pleading with Tom Thibodeau to allow Scalabrine to play? Simply because he's white, has orange hair, and takes unintentionally hilarious pictures. He's the opposite of what the current basketball player should look like. I saw Scalabrine play once, a few years back when the Celtics played at Madison Square Garden. He hit a corner three, and I don't think I cheered louder at any point during the game then that.
The difference between Scalabrine and Stiemsma is that the latter has tangible basketball skills that can actually be used during gametime situations. Scalabrine's best quality is that he makes fans stay late and buy concessions during out-of-reach games. But both were initially viewed the same in the eyes of Celtics fans, and that is because we expect our white basketball players to be gawky, uncoordinated, and rarely seen. If Stiemsma were African-American, he would be viewed as another great shot blocker who has marginal shooting abilities. But he's white, and this is Boston and the NBA, so that works as a huge plus in his favor in terms of attention. Eminem -- a man who currently lives on in Stiemsma's unfortunate hairstyle choice -- once said "If I was black, I would have sold half" during his song "White America". He wouldn't have received the same inaugural attention had he been black. American parents and Congress saw Eminem as a threat to their children (who were white), and unwittingly helped blow him up and catapult him to stardom. He would have found it without their help eventually, due to his exceptional skills and shock value lyrics, but would have been seen as less of a "threat" if he was African-American.
The other thing Stiemsma has unknowingly had to confront is Boston's historically porous civil rights record. In other words, schools didn't become desegregated until the mid-1970's. White players always seems to carry more weight in Boston, as it is a city that previously fought against progression, and a small minority of people view the Celtics' annual white player as a cherished relic from the past. Race may always be an underlying part of Boston, whether it shows in sports or in any other walks of life.
I have a theory about white basketball players, at least the ones who are mediocre at best, that may explain the perpetual initial fawning. White NBA fans watch Brian Scalabrine play, and think "Heck, I could do that", "I could put on loose fitting shorts, fetch Derrick Rose water, get paid millions, and go three point line to three point line when I do play". These players -- the Morrison's and the Scalabrine's -- we some of us see ourselves in. We can see ourselves doing what they do, as unrealistically and absurd as it sounds. We could never dunk from the foul line, but what Scalabrine does seems easy enough, right? Once that player reaches say, a Kevin Love status, that ridiculous fantasy is gone, but still lingers somewhat.
We many are fascinated with these players because, at least in the beginning, we envision ourselves stepping onto the TD Bank court for warmups, and then sitting back down, occasionally standing to return blood to our legs. We saw this with Stiemsma, in the beginning at least. He looked awkward and confused, the same way we would. We were just cheering for ourselves. Stiemsma has since left (or was never even in) that stage, but we still gawk and ogle at the white professional basketball player. And it's oddly natural.
0 recs | 239 comments
Solid Post
Good read
RotB_MattR - January 3, 2012 via mobile
Actually I think the article is … In poor taste and sensationalized.
I like him because we had little expectations and he plays with heart and has far exceeded expectations. Don’t care what race he is.
kuekuatsheu - January 3, 2012 via iPhone app
Who are we kidding
What you said makes sense, but at the same time…lets face it…we as fans dont expect a whole lot out of white american basketball players. I am white btw
Kgwillkillyou - January 4, 2012 via mobile
Actually -------- (READ)
It’s more white players as a whole rather than Stiemsma. And because he is white, many (not all) might have laughed or thought he wouldn’t be very good. Just how our minds work in America. And I would agree it shouldn’t be this way.
AmazinKazin - January 4, 2012
+1
Totally agree.
Kgwillkillyou - January 4, 2012 via mobile
Thanks guys.
Compliment….I think?
Brendan O'Hare - January 4, 2012
actually I did read
And that is not how OUR minds work here in America.
kuekuatsheu - January 4, 2012 via iPhone app
Thanks RotB
Brendan O'Hare - January 4, 2012
good stuff here Brendan
as a preemptive strike – allow me to remind everyone to be respectfully cautious with their word choices when discussing race
not trying to be the P.C. police, just want people to write clearly so that intentions aren’t misconstrued
thanks
Jeff Clark - January 3, 2012
oh you guys are the pc police. You might as well own it. Their is no cursing, you can't hammer other posters for idiotic posts or get in big arguements
no showing too much emotions, no calling players nasty names and now watch out we might talk about race differences
meanwhile others sites on sb nation allow everything so come on you need to own this, Jeff. You are what you are
wahz - January 3, 2012
Even if we are "politically correct" on here, I don't see the harm...
There’s nothing wrong with being sensitive — or even over-sensitive — to people’s feelings when talking in public. Engendering a respectful, family-friendly environment isn’t a bad thing.
Roy_Hobbs - January 3, 2012
I didn't say it was harmful, Roy, but lets not deny what it is. There should be a place like that is pc or family friendly and this is it.
If Jeff doesn’t realize thats what this is well that is interesting
The old yahoo celtics area was horrible, to say this is better, well this is heaven compared to that.
however its way too pc and in my mind there is no place better yet so this is where I go
You want spectacular un edited writing well there are 15 places like that in the baseball and basketball areas. Non of them have to do with Boston. I wish it were like that here, without mods acting like they will delete your post just because but that is what it is in celtics blog
wahz - January 3, 2012
I'm not 100% sure I understand everything u wrote, wahz
…since it’s kinda stream-of-consciousness. But I agree with you. I think.
JR99 - January 4, 2012
umm, ok - I guess we are playing PC police
I don’t know, I guess the idea is that I want people to say what they mean without being mean – you follow?
Jeff Clark - January 4, 2012
Well, this thread is a very good case in point
I see you deleted a 7-8 part conversation below, because one poster said something that was not entirely kind. (Ok, he asked if another poster beats his wife.) Now, you KNOW it was meant in jest, of course. There was NO question about that. And in the conversation, no one expressed hurt feelings or outrage. It was funny, in the moment. Yet it was deleted, along with the entire conversation that followed.
The thing is, the conversation that followed was the closest we’ve come in this whole thread to the heart of the matter. Now, all those words are lost…. like tears in rain (h/t BR :).
I think deletion should be your atom bomb: not done unless all mods agree, and the transgression is truly egregious. Why? Because conformity — which you are trying to achieve — comes with a heavy price. Ideas are stifled, communication is diminished. And that’s a pure bad thing in a place like this.
I know the world will not end because of this, and I don’t want to overstate the case. But I think it’s worth pointing out the price of censorship. In a place designed to share ideas, that’s a pretty big sin.
JR99 - January 4, 2012
fair enough point about the follow on threads
I’ll un-hide the conversation
in some ways I really wish we had more flexibility in our mod controls on the front page here
that said, I object to the idea that I’m trying to force conformity and frankly that insults me – but oh well, I guess that’s the price so I’ll pay it
Jeff Clark - January 4, 2012
I apologize for any perceived affront
I had zero intention of doing that. Believe me, my post wasn’t even a personal one… it was directed at the plural “you,” the site as a whole. So again, sorry.
[Btw, it sounds like a pretty easy programming challenge to give you the ability to edit/hide individual posts (perhaps by changing it to “deleted post”) without losing the downstream. I think that’s the added flexibility you mentioned.]
JR99 - January 4, 2012
well I am extremely sensitive to the negativity on some posts
But you can’t call people out on that or you may get your account revoked, the only recourse is to take time away which is poop.
I am not in favor of censorship, folk should be able to say what they want. And this is a better blog overall. But the copious amounts of negativity in this town stinks.
kuekuatsheu - January 3, 2012 via iPhone app
Folks saying whatever they want leads to the ESPN forums...
Not a good thing.
Roy_Hobbs - January 3, 2012
"folks saying whatever they want"
isn’t that something…is that what you mean to say, Roy?
wahz - January 3, 2012
nit picking
I think we’ve been clear, you have every right to any opinion you want – we aren’t trying to steer the content of your thoughts
unmoderated forums are (for the majority) a wasteland of flame wars, spammers, and flat out idiots – there’s a lot less freedom of speech in them than there is here
Jeff Clark - January 4, 2012
And Yahoo! blogs...
…You want us to become that?
Brendan O'Hare - January 4, 2012
Folks saying whatever they want
is a big part of the foundation of our country. That said, I’m not calling for any sort of revolution or anything. This is a fine place to discuss the Celtics. But to pretend that the Nation of Celticsblog isn’t a Nanny State is ridiculous as well.
I have never seen such a tame and censored sports “forum”, be it on the internet or in real life.
Again, you can argue that this is good or bad, and it isn’t really a big deal to me
But I try to be respectful anyway, and I have been very surprised by some of my own posts that were moderated.
That said, it’s not my site, and if this is family-oriented or whatever, it isn’t my call, and I don’t think that forced politeness on the internet is a cause worth rallying against
KGHurtYourFeelings - January 4, 2012
Kudos to Jeff and other moderators on this site
for making it a place worth turning to. When KG was traded to Boston I became a Celtics fan and delved into the history head first. Of all the sites I checked out, this one was and still is head and shoulders above the rest because of the standard that Jeff and other writer/moderators set.
I can’t say how much I appreciate having this site to turn to where there are posters that know their basketball and share the history and their personal stories. Because of the tone and moderation of this site, it attracts and keeps people that don’t just spout crap. The internet has plenty of that already.
And if the so-called tight controls force people to be more civil than they’d like – well, I for one think that is a WONDERFUL thing… to make those people stop and ponder how to communicate their thoughts clearly and with respect. And then just maybe take this same approach in the real world. People can disagree all they want with respect — happens all the time — but not as much on sports blogs or call-in radio.
SotaPop - January 5, 2012
yup
kuekuatsheu - January 3, 2012 via iPhone app
+ 1 for P.C.
Derekg49 - January 4, 2012
Whenever race is mentioned, lots of people will immediately downplay it’s revlevance because it makes them uncomfortable. Race issues ARE in the NBA and across the world. This was an interesting look at how it can have an affect in today’s NBA.
thebolt - January 3, 2012 via mobile
I've been a Celtic fan since the Cowens/Jo Jo days
and I’ve never rooted for a player because if his race. To be frank, I didn’t even think about a player’s race when looking at a player.
I thought that Celtics fans who cheered like crazy for Scal were an embarrassment to me as a Celtic fan and insulting to Scal as a player. Who cares what race the guy was? I looked at him as a hard working, smart basketball player with bottom of the league athleticism, but the type of player who could always find a place as the 12th-15th man on a contender.
By cheering for Scal merely for him entering the game, and going crazy when the guy hit a shot, fans diminish all the work Scal has put in to even step on an NBA court. Listening to Celtics fans cheering for him like he was a Special Olympian or something (as opposed to one of the 450 men on the planet who play in the NBA) made me cringe.
Yesterday, I watched some tool TV anchor on CSSNE compare Steamer to Scal. There’s nothing comparable with these guys besides one thing – race. I prefer to evaluate players based on factors other than race.
TripleOT - January 3, 2012
With Scal,
I was about 14 when I went nuts when he entered the game, so I wonder if I would act the same way today.
Brendan O'Hare - January 3, 2012
4 point play
(and 1 to the next level)
kuekuatsheu - January 3, 2012 via iPhone app
i agree... i used to cringe too
milt palacio's shot - January 4, 2012
I resent the implication, tot. I am a huge Scal fan, not because he is white, but because he is a symbol of an average guy making it by pure effort, despite maybe not having all the physical attributes, Scal’s head was always in the right place, and no one questions his heart or his willingness to put it all on the line for his team.
thirstyboots18 - January 4, 2012
Were you at the Garden cheering for Scal like crazy for him doing nothing but checking into the game? If not, there’s no implication for you to resent.
TripleOT - January 9, 2012
Article seems a bit exaggerated
At the moment there are white centers in the league that are fine ball players—Love and Gasol to name at least two that I would not mind having on the Celts. There are also white ball players playing positions other than center that also excel. I just think that the article is a bit overblown as it relates to a white player that has basketball skills.
ramana - January 3, 2012
Really?
Are there other white basketball players (non-European) that excel the way Love does? I certainly can’t think of any.
/Ignore comment below. Forgot how to use reply button.
Brendan O'Hare - January 3, 2012
blake griffin
bostonceltics - January 3, 2012
+1
he is a horror-ball player compared to Love. :D
How about Yao Ming?
kheldar52077 - January 3, 2012
i believe he ain’t pure white (white dad-black mom or something like that)..
Rany - January 4, 2012
or
he might be a Black Albino. XD
I don’t think anybody cares what his race is as long as he plays great basketball.
kheldar52077 - January 4, 2012
Nope...
DesertCeltFan - January 4, 2012
JJ Redick isn't horrible
Little ticket - January 3, 2012
He is a a decent bench player, borderline starter on bad teams but that's not saying much
But Love is definitely unique, it’s been a long time since a white, American player has been THAT good.
kg2128 - January 4, 2012
Rudy
Wintersun - January 4, 2012
Tomjanovich? right!
Rany - January 4, 2012
American-Born is the important part.
And as Brendan mentioned, I dare you to think of one other than Love.
Sizzlack - January 3, 2012
Really?
Are there other white basketball players (non-European) that excel the way Love does? I certainly can’t think of any.
Brendan O'Hare - January 3, 2012
Deron Williams
kheldar52077 - January 3, 2012
David Lee
kheldar52077 - January 3, 2012
I wouldn't say Lee does anymore.
Brendan O'Hare - January 3, 2012
Rotation player though, borderline all-star at a time.
So I’d say he has to count, still…
At the very least, you can count them on one hand.
Sizzlack - January 3, 2012
Deron Williams is not white
prov1ml - January 3, 2012
he looks white though. :D
kheldar52077 - January 3, 2012
+1
bostonceltics - January 3, 2012
I have never ready anything on celticsblog in such bad taste as your post and your comments here......
We’re really going to reduce players to their “races” now? Can we please just say that Greg Stiemsma is a basketball player and leave it at that? What do you mean by race exactly anyway… the darkness of a person’s skin tone?
Honestly, this is an embarrassing post and it makes me question the integrity of this website. Please don’t talk about how “we” white people related to Greg Stiemsma because we could picture ourselves as “awkward” and “confused” on the basketball court…. these are your own thoughts and they are racist in the most basic sense of the word. Way too much information being spilled here…
milt palacio's shot - January 4, 2012
no such thing as color blind
we are all “racial” if not necessarily “racist” in the worst connotation of that word
my black friends don’t want me to see them without seeing their color – they own their blackness and are proud of it and allow it to help define a small (or in some cases big) part of who they are
the only reason white basketball players are seen as awkward and confused is because lately there have been very few Larry Birds and far too many Shawn Bradleys – that’s not racist so much as it is racial fact
difficult and touchy subject, but try to keep an open mind
Jeff Clark - January 4, 2012
Actually
I don’t see race or color… I’m just like Stephen Colbert.
http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/72238/july-27-2006/better-know-a-district—-district-of-columbia—-eleanor-holmes-norton
Brendan - January 4, 2012
listen... I'm not saying that race does not matter
and trust me, my mind is open on the subject. I think it’s a great thing that a this blog has a discussion about race, because in the NBA and in society at large it is an obviously important subject.
At the same time, I don’t think that racism is as simple as just hating people who look different than you do… we are all racist in a sense, because we are all part of a society that maintains a permanent state of inequality for whole groups of people, who we group together in terms of (perceived) skin color, nationality, religion, or whatever else.
I am not advocating that we try to be “color blind,” whatever that means. I am simply asking that we:
A) not rely on ignorant racial stereotypes (for instance many white people are awkward or black people are gangsta – both which were said in these comments) which is certainly racism
B) not play “pin the race on the basketball player” Is Deron Williams white? Is Delonte West Black? Is Yao Ming Yellow or is Greg Stiemsma even really white? These are really insidious questions to me. The only way to know – ask Deron, Delonte, Yao, and Greg what they are. It’s not up for debate.
milt palacio's shot - January 4, 2012
Regarding your points:
Point A, whether we like it or not, is the stereotype of the white NBA player, because those players do exist. Not all of them are, but the stereotype isn’t exactly undeserved.
B) Those first two are more black than white, so they aren’t grouped with Stiemsma, if that makes sense in a non-racist way.
Brendan O'Hare - January 4, 2012
He did say “American born white NBA players”. Excludes the Euros.
mr1313 - January 3, 2012
I saw Eminem mentioned in this article and thought, Greg 'STIEM SHADY' sounds nice!
Rany - January 3, 2012
The thing about Scal was that Danny Ainge loved his basketball IQ. He helped to contribute to the team both in practice and from the bench. Same reason Thibodeau brought him to Chicago.
mr1313 - January 3, 2012
Same Basketball IQ as Jordan if I'm not mistaken!
prov1ml - January 3, 2012
Doc has always said if Scal ever decided to Coach, he'd have a spot on his staff in a heart beat.
Still hope that happens some day.
Sizzlack - January 3, 2012
Scal is an automatic shoo-in to become a coach; it was never his playing skills that kept him around.
lygafe - January 4, 2012
i love Scal
he reminds me of Larry Bird in the alternate universe. :D
kheldar52077 - January 3, 2012
This post is why Boston has the racist rep.......
All this does is highlight the narrow minded view of certain fans. Steamer is only a topic in Boston, and only a race issue there. Nobody outside of Boston looks at this as a race issue, it’s a demographics issue.
PTrain - January 3, 2012
yup
kuekuatsheu - January 3, 2012 via iPhone app
thank you!
milt palacio's shot - January 4, 2012
disagree
Stiemsma was a very popular topic around the interwebs yesterday and I am pretty sure it would have been a non-story if he was black
Jeff Clark - January 4, 2012
There is, of course, no way of knowing that.
So we of course can’t prove a negative.
Is it in good taste and even necessary to assert that it is ONLY a story because he is white?
Because you can not prove that either.
So basically we are left with yet another ‘generalized’ accusation of Boston fans being racist, ‘in general’ just floating out here.
mmmmm - January 4, 2012
No, pretty sure Boston has the racist rep for many other reasons.
Brendan O'Hare - January 4, 2012
Nope
I´m european and I can see the special attraction factor, too.
I think most (not all) of the white americans in the NBA shouldn´t be there, and are only on the roster for fan-meetings and to sell jerseys.
The Ostertags and Scalabrines of the NBA are far too common and are hyped way too much to come to any other conclusion. Isn´t it strange that most of them are “12th men”, but have pretty long careers compared to the average NBA player, mostly because of their allegedly high “Bball IQ” and teamwork?
It´s a bit like people in the 70ies saying “I have nothing against black people, I love James Brown and Sammy Davis, Jr”, but they like them mostly as a special attraction, or as a lovable clown, not as their boss or boyfriend of their daughter. They like them to fill roles that aren´t threatening to their own social status and don´t disrupt their world-view.
I think many people who say they don´t look at the color of the skin to judge a player are honest. Others are not. Some of us fool themselves.
Casperian - January 4, 2012
Times may have changed
I found out that St. Louis schools didn’t integrate until the 80’s, and people still hate on Boston. I remember that guys like Henry Finkle were like human victory cigars. Their presence in the game meant it was over.
Regarding Boston’s past, you have to differentiate between the city and the team. Russell and others received lots of hatred from some. But the team wasn’t afraid of black stars, and had the first black head coach. the Red Sox are NOT the Sox of the past which had a number of racists in upper management. At some point people need to live in the present or they are just as prejudiced as those who created the reputation.
cavman - January 3, 2012
I think the players that become fan favorites in Boston look a little more past race and more into either pure hustle or athleticism, with an underdog sprinkled in there. I think there are plenty of black players who have been fan favorites in the past. Look at Gerald Green (athleticism), Ryan Gomes (hustle), and of course, the all-mighty Walter McCarty (the definition of a Tommy Point). If you look harder, there were people begging players like JR Bremer, Brandon Hunter to play minutes. I think fans love to root for an underdog, and when that underdog is playing with lots of hustle and looks like there’s potential, then people becomes fans. Race is less an issue, I think.
Amonkey - January 3, 2012
I agree. This is also why fans here loved Delonte' (energy, hustle) and Powe (hustle, blue-collar)
and why they also are falling in love with Brandon Bass (many of same qualities as Powe).
But boy, did the Boston fans go crazy when white boy Troy Murphy hit the court!or .. wait … nvrmnd.
mmmmm - January 4, 2012
i remember the reaction to murphy differently
he went to notre dame (fighting irish) and has the most irish name possible. a lot of people were happy about the acquisition and made those connections. of course once he played the reaction was completely different.
rm81 - January 4, 2012
That's pretty much the point.
mmmmm - January 4, 2012
so what im saying is
race AND play are both factors in how people view a player. it seems like a lot of people are saying its only play
rm81 - January 4, 2012
Try inserting 'some' in front of 'people' and then we'll have a rational discussion.
mmmmm - January 4, 2012
Clearly there are many factors
But I see no credible analysis that supports race as anything close to a significant factor…
jakeshuttlesworth - January 4, 2012 via mobile
How would you conduct a credible analysis?
Casperian - January 4, 2012
Survey.
jakeshuttlesworth - January 4, 2012 via mobile
A survey wouldn’t work. Most of the people don’t recognize that race is a factor even though it almost always is.
Reverend_Randy - January 4, 2012
Surveys are often used to find out things people are not concisousy aware of...
like behavioral issues, addictions, etc… It’s common practice in Quantitative Psychology, The questions would need to be formulated in a way that gauges the respondent’s true feelings though.
jakeshuttlesworth - January 4, 2012
big baby is also a
Fan favorite, he is not white, am I right this time? :D
kheldar52077 - January 3, 2012
+1
jakeshuttlesworth - January 4, 2012 via mobile
that's because he was fat and couldn't jump
like a lot of basketball fans. It goes back to what Brendan was saying in the original article. Fans like to root for people in whom they can see themselves.
KGHurtYourFeelings - January 4, 2012
Yep
http://www.nba.com/2010/news/features/david_aldridge/06/14/morning.tip/index.html
Staubach - January 4, 2012
I wouldn't lump Stiesma and Scal together... yet.
I never liked the way people cheered for Scal to come into the game. Seemed like people were denigrating him – treating him like a lovable clown.
Stiesma looks like he might be a different kind of player. Might. It’s only been a few games and it’s more likely he’ll turn out to be another flash in the pan. But for now the excitement has at least some basis, and it’s not fair to lump him with Scal. I know you included that in the article, but I don’t think you gave it the emphasis it deserves. At least at this point, I don’t think the interest he’s getting is much different than what we’d hear if the Cs picked up a black player from the NBDL and he put up a line like Stiesma’s.
There’s always a ton of enthusiasm about potential. I remember seeing a lot of enthusiasm not so long ago about JaJuan Johnson. He’s got KG’s physique! KG is taking him under his wing – the kid must be the real deal!! This was before JJJ had even entered a game. If he put up a line like Stiesma, people would be pretty excited.
All that said, if Stiesma sticks, a lot of fans will almost certainly relate to him differently because of his race. But he’s (so far) not Scal, and it’s not fair to lump him in.
Sophomore - January 3, 2012
I agree
kuekuatsheu - January 4, 2012 via iPhone app
Given how good Stiemsma has looked,
I’m more curious about why he was freely available. Based just on his height and ability to block shots he’d seem to be worth an NBA roster slot, but it seems he can shoot a bit, too.
Has his game taken a huge leap in the D-League recently? Has his race worked against him? Have scouts and execs perceived him to be less effective than he is because he’s white?
SAS129 - January 3, 2012
His game really wasn't up to NBA ready when he finished at Wisconsin.
it steadily improved in each of the last 3 years, both over seas (Korea, Europe) and in the D-League.
That’s why he’s floated under the radar.
mmmmm - January 4, 2012
who cares what color dude is?
I was intrigued when I first read about a center Ainge signed that could defend and block shots. I was excited before I even knew he was white. Now I have seen him play and I’m really excited. not because he is white, but because Perk has been our only decent center since Robert Parish. I quite honestly don’t care if Steamroller is purple if he can play center at a high level for the Celtics. I agree with the poster who finds it embarrassing and insulting when people went nuts for Scal in garbage time. Scal was an underrated defender and shooter who did a good job when called upon and frankly saved our butts when we had injuries. making his appearances a joke was ridiculous. this post and these sentiments show why people think Boston is racist. Can we please grow up as a human race?
bewareofdware - January 3, 2012 via Android app
+1
Agree with every word.
JR99 - January 3, 2012
+1
would love to see a purple race. XD
kheldar52077 - January 3, 2012
Not me...
They’d probably be Lakers fans.
Roy_Hobbs - January 3, 2012
LOL!
I am thinking of Rebecca Romijn in X-Men movie.
kheldar52077 - January 3, 2012
indeed
kuekuatsheu - January 4, 2012 via iPhone app
+1
I didn’t even know what color he was when I first got interested in the ‘6’ 11", 260lbs’ stat line. Then I saw his D-league stats on basketball-reference.com and got excited.
Then I saw his picture finally and frankly, it didn’t do anything for me.
The kid can play ball. That’s all that matters.
mmmmm - January 4, 2012
My feelings were exactly like Mmmmm's
Defensive player of the year! Shotblocker. Size. Just what we need.
Dipper - January 4, 2012
From this side of the ocean, I had no idea he was white, nor did I care. Winning is the only thing.
lygafe - January 4, 2012
so far, so good, with stiemboat. if he turns out to be half as good as ben wallace, i would be happy. the only race that matters is the race to the top and he will do for now, but i get a haunting feeling we are still 1 big man short.
nazzbo - January 3, 2012
A little soon for all this
It is just a nice story when a player comes out of nowhere and has a moment of notoriety. Chances are it won’t last as NBA teams figure out how to undress him. We can hope it lasts because we need that contribution. Belichek could point out that there is a lot to work on and a lot of hoops yet to play. Yes, I did notice that he is blond but the relevant stats are points, rebounds, blocks, etc If this is all we get, blond won’t help or hurt. Let’s enjoy this while we can.
DeeEl - January 3, 2012
Gotta be careful with stuff like this:
Who is the “we” here? White fans? I think this is a stereotypical view of the Boston fan, and I don’t think it’s representative of our audience here on the blog. Certainly, most Celtics fans are white males, but people of all races and both genders belong in our fan base.
Roy_Hobbs - January 3, 2012
+1
JR99 - January 3, 2012
i am an asian
boston fan since 1988. i thought stiemsma was a german, larry bird was black, deron williams was white, and i always confuse bill russell for wilt chamberlain.
I also thought celtics is a basketball team until i saw rangers vs celtics. :D
kheldar52077 - January 3, 2012
The Cricket Team?
BrokenbatGrandSlam - January 5, 2012
exactly why this article is in poor taste
kuekuatsheu - January 4, 2012 via iPhone app
It's cringeworthy
jakeshuttlesworth - January 4, 2012 via mobile
+1
I didn’t see Boston fans screaming with excitement every time Troy Murphy ran out on the court.
Ultimately, most Boston fans root for players that they like. And they may like them for a variety of reasons. Usually being great players helps. But just being a likable character is plenty of valid reason for fans to root for someone as well.
Scal was far more than the ‘token white guy’. He was an underrated basketball player who I think most fans here DID appreciate because they knew he was working hard at his craft and generally helped, not hurt the team. Plus he was … IS … a very popular personality here.
mmmmm - January 4, 2012
Plus he does have a fun name to say
It’s like any player with the oo sound in their name automatically gets chants that sound like boos OR yelling Nomar because its fun!
jakeshuttlesworth - January 4, 2012 via mobile
well done, I think you've gotten to the root of the problem with this article
garz - January 4, 2012
saying "we" like that doesn't work anyway, even if all the fans were white
You can’t take your own personal thoughts and feelings and tell everyone else that those are their feelings as well.
garz - January 4, 2012
exactly Roy, you cited the critical part of this article.... Brendan O'Hare: please don't include me in the "we" of your white fantasies... I'm not "fascinated with these players"
and I don’t share your misgivings about white people looking “awkward and confused”. Please drop the “we” and just say “I”. Just say it: “I am fascinated with these players.” “I still gawk and ogle at the white professional basketball player”.
milt palacio's shot - January 4, 2012
that is fair, thanks for the clarification
Jeff Clark - January 4, 2012
All fans.
But it doesn’t include everyone, obviously.
Brendan O'Hare - January 4, 2012
But yes, that is a fair point, Roy.
Brendan O'Hare - January 4, 2012
Thank you. I dislike it when ' we ' is used, instead of ' I '.
If the author wishes to state his own opinion, he should feel free to do so, by saying ’ I ’. Saying ’ we ’, as in all of us, or most of us, is presumptuous, to say the least, unless, of course, the author, meant to use the Royal ’ We ’, in which case, it would be pretentious..
lygafe - January 4, 2012
I thought Scal was fun/funny
…because he was (is) overweight and kinda ungainly, and often hilarious in interviews. The cheering for his shots always seemed stupid, but he WAS a funny guy. Is that related to his whiteness? I never thought so.
Stiemsma is making an impression now solely because of what he’s doing for the team on the court, imo. His race has nothing to do with it.
JR99 - January 3, 2012
It is
Imagine him being black. He’d try to cover his stupidity with being “gangsta” like Iverson or something.
Shelden, for example.
Wintersun - January 4, 2012
Stupidity as in looking stupid/funny
Not saying he’s stupid.
Wintersun - January 4, 2012
What
I do not think of Shelden as trying to be “gangster”!
jakeshuttlesworth - January 4, 2012 via mobile
please... keep these comments to yourself. You have no idea how ignorant this is, do you?
milt palacio's shot - January 4, 2012
Well ....
This post was well-written, put together well, and contained no grammatical errors.
Beyond that, I have to ask, Really? Is this really what you think of Boston, the Celtics, or the NBA in general? Sure there may be race issues in the League, but I’d argue they’re no more representative of anything other than the state of race relations in the US in general. They may be amplified somewhat due to TV exposure. (With emphasis on the “in general.” )
(Confession: I’ve never lived in Boston. I’m a west/mid-westerner, picking up my Celtics love from my dad. My first favorite player was Jo Jo White, followed thereafter by Tiny and Larry. Diverse enough?)
I get the OP’s point, I guess. But I loved watching Scal because of his effort and enthusiasm and his obvious IQ – the body wasn’t always willing but the head always appeared to be in the right place. I didn’t even know Stiem’s was a white dude until I caught the highlights of the last game on ESPN (loved watching Flip get tossed) but who can’t get excited about a young, previously unknown big man with a nice outside touch who can block some shots, make some jumpers and get some boards? This is what excites me, not the fact that he’s white.
I think the author has some introspection ahead.
Steve
Steve_M - January 3, 2012
Agree, except for 1 thing
End of 4th paragraph: then/than. :)
JR99 - January 3, 2012
oh come on!
One grammatical error!
Brendan O'Hare - January 4, 2012
The man's talking about physical race differences and how they're comprehended
You’re talking about racism.
Wintersun - January 4, 2012
agreed Steve_M
I sure hope the author of this post reconsiders what he really means when he talks about “white people”
milt palacio's shot - January 4, 2012
No, I don't.
Brendan O'Hare - January 4, 2012
Perceptions in history of Boston
http://www.nba.com/2010/news/features/david_aldridge/06/14/morning.tip/index.html
Staubach - January 4, 2012
This is a narrow minded post
I couldn’t care less what color a player is. I’m excited about steamer because he’s a big who can block shots and shoot midrange jumpers. He could be purple for all I care and I suspect the vast majority of Cs fans feel the same way. I’m surprised Jeff didnt delete this regressive small-minded post.
Daveonthecape - January 3, 2012 via mobile
What a narrow-minded view of the universe.
Brendan O'Hare - January 4, 2012
Narrow minded is
seeing people’s color instead of seeing people. When you see Peiece or Rondo or Ray Allen, or any of our Cs, do you really think of their race? Most fans don’t. They see them as the individuals they are. I found this post naive and small minded.
Daveonthecape - January 4, 2012 via mobile
People don't think of their race.
Because like most NBA players, they are black.
Brendan O'Hare - January 4, 2012
People dont think of race because
they view people as people…unlike your op
Daveonthecape - January 4, 2012 via mobile
Narrow minded is refusing the acknowledge and own up to the role of race in your life and in the world because you don’t think of yourself as a racist.
Most people are not educated enough to comment on matters of race. I still have a lot to learn myself. OP seems like he knows what he’s talking about.
Reverend_Randy - January 4, 2012
Thanks Randy.
This is a tough thing to write about, and it’s still something I am not entirely sure how to do. But thank you for the kind words.
Brendan O'Hare - January 4, 2012
You're wrong
You say that because I don’t think about race when I look at Pierce or Steamer that I’m not acknowledging race n my life. Give me a break. Educated people look past race and at people as people. Racism is by definition small minded. I’m certainly not saying the op is racist just that most Cs fans don’t share the view of the op so he shouldn’t have made it sound like they do.
Daveonthecape - January 4, 2012 via mobile
In reviewing his career further than I personally had until now, he clearly shouldn't have been drafted
there is no way he showed enough at UW to get drafted imho…maybe God could have seen this coming but even that was a reach
he has flat out improved year after year and actually played better at every new level. Incredible really. The next thing would be to do ok the next several weeks and keep getting pt and earn his spot…he will have to out play wilcox marginally…that will be something special
wahz - January 3, 2012
There is more to it
We thought we were in big trouble at center and a unknown from the D-League is not embarrassing himself. Unknowns doing well always creates the underdog appeal. Very similar I think to when Leon Powe used to play. D-League and second rounders are often fan favorites for that reason. I think he would have received the same reaction no matter what. Of course, there will always be a race factor. Black people used to not like the Celtics because they once had more white players. That element does not just come from one direction. But the majority see only green and winning.
Staubach - January 4, 2012
Interesting article
http://www.nba.com/2010/news/features/david_aldridge/06/14/morning.tip/index.html
Staubach - January 4, 2012
thing is that Leon was capable of a 40 point 25 board game in the pac ten...so this is even more unusual
wahz - January 4, 2012
True, and Leon was a number two who got passed by other teams
He had a great story too. And heart. Who could not love Leon?
Staubach - January 4, 2012
A little far down the river
I think that we may be ahead of ourselves here. Rather than chocking it up to race, which is hard to do when the most beloved current Celtics are all African American, I think it may be a case of a player helping out in a area we have been desperate to see shored up since the largely hated trade of Kendrick Perkins. Who also was African American.
O’Neal has been dinged up and not playing well to say the least, Stiemsma has come in and in limited minutes played well. It has energized the fans to see the 5 position played well even in spurts since Perkins was shipped out of town.
ctrey - January 4, 2012
A Stiemsma-Kaman or Stiemsma-David Lee frontline would be nice!
Rany - January 4, 2012
not liking this article
sorry, race is not something i care about when it comes to me liing amy team. Im glad that he’s out there doin his part to help the team and get better as a player. He’s a great story becasuse of where he’s come from and what hes contributed thus far, not becasue of his race. He’s an athlete and surprise surprise there are some that are white.
cltc5 - January 4, 2012
i can't say for sure but
I think the reason that I like Stiemsma is that he’s a Celtic rookie that actually has a chance to be relevant. We haven’t had one since Rondo. And we haven’t had an athletic shot blocking force in the middle in YEARS. I don’t think people are necessarily talking about him because he’s white and has shown some very good stretches of play — rather that this is all completely unexpected from a player that we, the fan base, realistically expected ZERO from.
dobbs - January 4, 2012
This column would have made more sense ...
… if it were written about 15 years ago, and if it were supported by actual reporting, which is what sportswriters (and yes, columnists) do. A very unfortunate piece, however filled with good intentions. The only thing that makes Stiemsma compelling is that he appears to be over-achieving, coming from seemingly out of nowhere (D-League). That’s what fascinates me. Not his skin tone.
Big_Easy - January 4, 2012
Stiemsma didn't exist in the NBA 15 years ago.
Brendan O'Hare - January 4, 2012
This article is either some sort of attempt to be controversial or the writer has a serious issue with projecting himself onto his perception of the world.
He writes, “The difference between Scalabrine and Stiemsma is that the latter has tangible basketball skills that can actually be used during gametime situations.”
To say Scalabrine lacked tangible basketball skills is absurd. The guy was a rotation player on some very good teams during his career. Bearded ladies don’t get minutes on good teams.
To say he did not deliver good minutes when used during game time situations shows that the writer either was not watching or was unable to see the value of Scalabrine’s contributions during the 2008-2009 season and especially the 2009 playoffs.
Either way, the whole premise of the article seems forced.
Cousin It - January 4, 2012
overrating scal completely
he was a rotation player on very bad nets teams and then a rotation on bad celtics teams until the big 3 came. he started in the 09 playoffs because kg was injured. dont get me wrong he gave it his best effort and was a pretty smart player but he wasnt on the active roster in the finals against the lakers. towards the end it got insane how loud the crowd would cheer when he had an open shot at the end of blowouts.
scal was an alright player but walter mccarty he was not
rm81 - January 4, 2012
Those 'bad celtics teams' were indeed bad, but the Nets had a winning record
in each of his last two years there as a ~1000 minute rotation player.
At any rate, Cousin It’s post does not overrate Scal. His point is valid – you don’t play that many minutes on a team that wins 42-47 games in the NBA if you ‘lack tangible basketball skills’.
mmmmm - January 4, 2012
Every team needs a guy who can
play the 5, 4 and 3. Scal may not have been great, but he could defend the three positions.
Dipper - January 4, 2012
Scal started 9 games during the championsip year and 8 the following year.
He averaged over 10 minutes a game both those years. Those were good teams, and he was in the rotation. Doc didn’t play him because he was a white guy or, as you put it, a “bearded lady.” He played him because Scalabrine helped the team.
Cousin It - January 4, 2012
i think as a whole
people around boston get way too defensive when race comes up. to deny race has any part in the way fans view stiemsma is a little ridiculous. i like seeing rashard lewis’ shot blocked as much as anyone but the reaction that he got at the garden was insane and ill say it was over the top. theres a lot of reasons for that crowd reaction and to deny race is any reason, even a small reason is sort of ignorant. i think some people just dont want to be perceived as racist so they dont want to admit that part of the reason they like a player is because he is white.
rm81 - January 4, 2012
LOL - when did you stop beating your wife?
mmmmm - January 4, 2012
really dude?
i thought you wanted to have a rational conversation? i think im making some valid points if you wanna debate me on them than say something. i dont know how to respond to that. im trying to say race has some (sometimes small, sometimes large) factor in how some people view a player. and particularly in boston whenever an issue about race comes up, people are quick to distance themselves from it as evidenced by the comments in this post
rm81 - January 4, 2012
Different folks have different strokes
It may seem to you, from your POV, that people distance themselves from racial matters because they don’t want to admit that race plays a role in their views on sports figures. But I can tell you with a very high degree of certainty that there are people — I think many, a majority actually, but I’ve never counted — for whom race is not at all relevant that way. I say that because I am one of those (latter) people.
For me, Stiemsma is an interesting prospect, a possible nugget from NBDL that nobody saw coming. I like him now because he’s shown us some good stuff. If he turns bad, I’ll be calling for him to be cut. Black, white, green or purple…. skin color has nothing to do with any of it.
We can disagree on the core issue. But if you come to say that I am lying, that in fact I do have a hidden racial agenda — because I am like all the other “people” in your general statement — then we are not disagreeing; you are simply out of line.
JR99 - January 4, 2012
well youre speaking on a personal level
and im speaking on a general level. i look at the crowd reaction from stiemsmas games in boston and hearing calls on weei and i think im seeing a reaction that outweighs the players merits. now theres a lot of reasons for this that have been mentioned (D league story, unexpected contributions, etc) im saying i think one of the reasons is because some white people enjoy seeing an american born white player succeed. i dont think theres anything wrong with that. and i think everyone will be happy to see him on the bench if he starts sucking.
rm81 - January 4, 2012
i also dont think anyone is lying or has a hidden agenda
rm81 - January 4, 2012
The race theory is pure speculation
As we can tell by the response to this article most people like him for a variety of other attributes. The clear narrative to me is that Stiemsma is a surprise and people love to believe in something that seems to good to be true. The fact that he is an ex d -leaguer who came out of nowhere seems a lot more relavent to the equation than race.
jakeshuttlesworth - January 4, 2012 via mobile
so race is irrelevant?
rm81 - January 4, 2012
I recieved a severe warning for my "when did you stop beating" comment there - so I will apologize if it seemd 'over the top'..
But there was a serious point to it.
You (and the OP and supporting posts) are basically casting a broad accusation of racism.
You then dismiss denials in a way that’s similar to “Because you deny it, it must be true!” manner.
This is a no-win argument. You say below that you are speaking ‘in general’. Well, the ‘general’ population of Boston fans can’t speak up for themselves.
Until each of us as individuals speak in defense of ourselves, we are implicitly part of that ‘general’ population of fans and are being accused of racism. Not surprisingly, a lot of us have spoken up defensively. So you come along and basically say our denials have no merit.
Therefore, like when faced with the “When did you stop …” accusation, we can not win.
Apparently the mods are discussing whether I should be banned over my comment. I am surprised to find that it rises to that level. I get the feeling that I am not liked by some mods. In fact I have been told as much by one.
I hope I am not banned and I hope this follow-up clarifies the point of my comment. I should have clarified it then, but it was late and I perhaps did not exercise the best judgment by being too glib.
mmmmm - January 4, 2012
thanks for the apology
I will not be discussing any moderation specifics in public though – so if you want to email me directly, please feel free
regarding your “no-win argument” statements – I’m not sure I understand where you are coming from, but I certainly didn’t intend to accuse anyone of anything racist and I don’t think that was Brandon’s goal either
as I said, there is a fine line between racial and racist and because it is a touchy subject (that to be fair, we brought up) it is easy to take things out of context or misunderstand someone’s intent
without going too far into it, I think I’ll just leave it at that
Jeff Clark - January 4, 2012
If we are going to introduce a topic like this
Especially in the form of an article with clear logical holes, we should expect a significant backlash and it’s not surprising the backlash became escalated. I think moderating the comments probably does help maintain a civilized dialog, especially in a conversation about race….but clearly mmmm brings to the table a very well thought out and under-represented perspective.
jakeshuttlesworth - January 4, 2012 via mobile
I'm sorry.
But what are you taking about in reference to “logic holes”?
Brendan O'Hare - January 4, 2012
The article is a series of unsubstantiated assumptions
primarily that the reason people like certain (greg, scal) players is X
and that you feel Y so other people must also feel that way too
jakeshuttlesworth - January 4, 2012
well i'm sure some people do
as articulated by many others in the comments.
Brendan O'Hare - January 4, 2012
being sure some people do
is not the same as asserting that all people do.
Perhaps the problem is one of careful use of language.
There are other bits in the article but right off the bat, a statement like:
is a flat, bold assertion that does not in anyway qualify itself with ‘some people’. Basically, in that statement you are asserting what everybody thinks. About a race issue.
It should not be surprising that many others find such projection to be offensive and objectionable.
mmmmm - January 4, 2012
+ 1000 !!!
milt palacio's shot - January 4, 2012
i could do a better job of articulating my point
saying you like seeing a white player do well in the nba is not racist, but some people might think that if they say that they will sound like a racist. so im not presupposing that there are a lot of racists in boston. im presupposing that a lot of people around boston dont want to be seen as racist so they choose to completely ignore the fact that hes white. anyone can disagree with that assertion if they want. but why just ignore the fact that hes white? should black hockey fans not root for black players in the nhl?
rm81 - January 4, 2012
Here's the thing
Speaking for myself, which I believe probably applies to a lot of other people — it’s not that I choose to ignore the fact that he is white. Obviously, I am aware of it. It’s that it makes zero difference to me as a Celtics fan.
If he does well, my brain does not think “Oh wow, look at that white-boy play.” I think “Oh wow, we may have found ourselves a really good center,” and “Great, we’re gonna win this one.” His race did not enter my thinking about the Celtics in any significant way until this thread.
So you are right, it would not be truth for me to say that I ignore the fact that he’s white. Fact is, I ignore it when it comes to basketball. It’s irrelevant to me.
JR99 - January 4, 2012
or, many folks may literally not care that he's white.
The point is not that some/many/all of us fans may/may not be racially tinged in our thinking or even outright racist in our thinking.
The problem is when people make sweeping, unqualified assertions about how all of us think and then post blanket dismissals of any possible disassociation from that asserted group think.
mmmmm - January 4, 2012
mmmmm... c'mon that's an absurd comment. you're usually a reasonable commenter but your comment is no better than the orginal post here...
milt palacio's shot - January 4, 2012
really, really, really dislike this comment
and even in jest it has no place on this site
Jeff Clark - January 4, 2012
that was directed at mmmmm
Jeff Clark - January 4, 2012
rm81 - of course race affects people's opinions of other people... whether we like it or not, we americans all see racial differences...
i think the point of the majority of the responses here is to distance ourselves from the sentiments expressed in the original post – that there is any kind of inherent bias that we feel for Greg Stiemsma because he is white, or that any of us share the same kinds of fantasies as Brendan O’Hare apparently does on account of his being white.
milt palacio's shot - January 4, 2012
ya i agree with that
im not sure everyone else does
rm81 - January 4, 2012
What about Luke Harangody?
What about the “trade for Love/Birdman” posts we see quite frequently on the forums?
Why would you distance yourself from these sentiments if you can see that they do exist among some people? Isn´t the sensible reaction to accept the circumstances and discuss the matter, instead of attacking the messenger?
Casperian - January 4, 2012
that's a fair point... but I don't see why people can't do both.
which is to to say: both register our strong disagreement with the point of view, the language, and the conclusions of the original post, then to clarify why we disagree (which I think we’ve done)
AND
to then engage in an open discussion of the way that race factors into fans’ identifications with players, teams, etc.
milt palacio's shot - January 4, 2012
I enjoyed the post.
I think people are taking the message way to seriously.
beantownboy171 - January 4, 2012
thanks!!!
Brendan O'Hare - January 4, 2012
So...
Let’s get that win against New Jersey tomorrow! :D
SparzWizard - January 4, 2012
I don't understand the logic behind the Stiemsma/Scalabrine comparison
We have two types of “fan favorite” here in Boston:
1. The long-term deep bench guy, often a marginal NBA player. For whatever reason, fans gravitate to him and go wild any time he makes even a somewhat decent play.
2. The new guy who has a few decent games and generates hype completely out of proportion to his performance. Most of these guys fade as quickly as they ascend.
Scalabrine was clearly a #1 type, and Stiemsma is clearly a #2. Why compare them?
And for that matter I disagree about either the #1 or #2 guys being disproportionately white. In the #1 group a guy by the name of Waltah was pretty popular around here for a while, and so was another guy named M.L. Those are the guys I would compare to Scal, along with Greg Kite.
It’s hard to remember the #2 guys by their very nature, but here are a few names: Hunter, Greene, Green, Harangody, Erden, Hudson, Johnson, Walker etc…I don’t see a clear pattern there. But they are the guys I’d compare to Stiemsma.
I see little evidence to support the claim of racial bias, and even less reason to use the Scalabrine case as an argument that Stiemsma’s popularity stems from the same underlying reason (race or otherwise). It’s just not an apples to apples comparison.
Boris Badenov - January 4, 2012
Everyone got offended and are protecting themselves thinking you called all the people of Boston - racists
There can be some explosive white players, there are many good white players around the league and world, but I see your point – it’s been 20 years since any has been in Boston; Scal comes and Stiemsma was almost his inheritant.
Wintersun - January 4, 2012
i do think race is a factor...
but that doesn’t make it a negative. i think fans just like seeing some diversity in the game.
Kraidstar - January 4, 2012
http://www.nba.com/2010/news/features/david_aldridge/06/14/morning.tip/index.html
Staubach - January 4, 2012
an apology
Brandon wrote this, but I edited it and I’ll take responsibility if anyone was offended by it
the idea isn’t to further stereotypes or especially not racism, but rather to be open to discussing race intelligently and honestly
that said if the author made some poor choices in his words, that’s on me and I’m sorry I didn’t catch it
Jeff Clark - January 4, 2012
That´s exactly how I understood the article
Casperian - January 4, 2012
I guess that is the problem... maybe the article intended to broach the topic of race intelligently, but it was (for me) a very un-intelligent discussion of race and I am not sure the author even understands why his post offended people.
milt palacio's shot - January 4, 2012
I have to go away for a few hours
And will be unable to attend to the onslaught of comments. Look forward to defending myself when I get home!
Brendan O'Hare - January 4, 2012
Hi Brendan
Read this article.
http://www.nba.com/2010/news/features/david_aldridge/06/14/morning.tip/index.html
Staubach - January 4, 2012
C's have always been ahead of the curve with race.
Probably should have noted this in my article.yk
Brendan O'Hare - January 4, 2012
Yk is a typo. Oops.
Brendan O'Hare - January 4, 2012
I applaud this article for going there
In an age when NBA writing and media consists of stroking the ego’s of the media’s “superstars”, I applaud an article that made me think. Sport does not exist outside of our society. Race is STILL a factor in our society whether or not we think we’ve gotten past it as individuals.
I was watching the last game and when the “Stiemsa” chant began, I knew this player (and God knows I’ve rooted for him) had tapped into something in the crowd that wasn’t about basketball. There were three hall of famers who were playing. Four All-Stars. We have a player in Bass who in this short season has certainly solidified his role as our biggest threat off the bench. But it wasn’t any of those players’ names who were chanted. Admittedly, Stiesma had a very nice game and proved that he (may) have a few offensive weapons to go along with his shot blocking skills.
But I think part of the reason that Stiesma gets the adulation is BECAUSE he’s not a star, because he’ll probably never make an ALL-STAR team and most certainly won’t be a hall of famer. Fans like the underdog. We like the little player who could. And yes, as humans who are socialized in this society, we like to see people who look like us succeed. And let’s face it: the crowds at the Garden are much whiter than the city of Boston, or any big city in America for that matter.
While Scal is the obvious comparison to Stiemsa, I also remember the adulation for Eddie House. House even got a standing ovation AFTER he was traded. What (very) part-time bench player (albeit a very good shooter) gets a standing ovation at the Garden when he’s playing for an opposing team? Historians will have to correct me but I don’t remember any. House kicked up something in the audience too. And clearly he’s a very different complexion from Scal and Steamer. Once again, he was the little player who could. He was the underdog who could come in and win the game when the Hall of Famers fell short. He was a great shot but fans imagined they MIGHT (in their dreams) be able to hang with him at a game of pick up.
So it would be silly for anyone to say race isn’t a factor, I just hope it’s not the only factor we’re dealing with here. I hope fans see Steimsa as hope that our center position might be talented enough to somehow win a title rather than see him as the next great (or not so great) white hope in Boston. Do I think he’d be getting his name chanted at the Garden if he were KG"s complexion? I don’t know. Probably not. But I do think these boards would be praising his contribution and wondering about his potential.
And I hope we continue to get articles like this written. I see no need for apologies, just as I see no reason why anyone would be offended by it.
CelticsFan616 - January 4, 2012
Really appreciate this.
Seriously.
Brendan O'Hare - January 4, 2012
I agree the topic has a place
No hard feelings here….just didn’t appreciate the over generalizations
jakeshuttlesworth - January 4, 2012 via mobile
I think race is a factor with everything, Jake.
Whether you believe it is or not, it’s still a part of everyday society. Now, whether people choose to admit it or not, that’s a whole different story. Perhaps you don’t fall into the category of people who see Stiemsma as “white basketball player”, and that’s OK. The thing that gets me, is people who claim to not be aware Stiemsma is white, which is just a ridiculous thing to say. The majority of the NBA is black, and there are few white players, so I don’t believe my post to be out of line.
Brendan O'Hare - January 4, 2012
race maybe a factopr
but the article would probably have come across better if you explored the topic by proposing questions and potential explanations…some race, some others, and then having the posters debate amongst ourselves. I think the question is worth asking, but presuming the answer seems to come across as presumptuous and somewhat offensive.
jakeshuttlesworth - January 4, 2012
As I posted elsewhere
It’s not that I am not aware that Stiemsma is white. That would be silly. It’s that it’s not relevant to my thinking about the Celtics. If he does well, I’m happy for the team and myself and our prospects, but his whiteness has no impact either way.
Larry Bird obviously knows the race of everyone he meets, and always did, even when he played in Boston and was famously “color-blind,” back when that was a rarer thing than it is today. The point was, and is, that he just didn’t care when it came to basketball. I don’t care when it comes to basketball.
I think that probably applies to most of the objectors in this thread.
JR99 - January 4, 2012
Saying Bird didn't care...
…Is entirely false: http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=1818396
Brendan O'Hare - January 4, 2012
Surprising article
Apparently Bird’s thinking was reversely racial. He was affronted if the other team put a white guy on him! Funny stuff.
So yeah, as James says in the article and I wrote elsewhere, we don’t think race when watching a game, or thinking about our team. But we are not ignorant of race either. Everyone is aware of the issue; it’s part of being sentient.
JR99 - January 4, 2012
The attention is based on the fact that he has some skills that the Celtics gave been in need of
And he has worked his way up from the d-league/overseas into starting the other day for JO
bbeingphilled - January 4, 2012 via mobile
+1
It is more of an underdog thing. When a “rookie” plays well it gives you hope. Can you imagine if POB actually played well when he was here? People would have gone nuts
Staubach - January 4, 2012
One of the first articles I've read on this blog
I’m a new Celtics fan, following my two Boilermakers. Gotta say I’m impressed, I’m sure the author will take a lot of heat for this article, but it’s well written, and completely non-offensive to anyone thinking rationally. For an offensive (but very humorous) take on white players in basketball, see Daniel Tosh’s 2007 special, “Completely Serious”. Commenting from work so I can’t post a link to the segment, but basically it boils down to something along the lines of white players being allowed one extra point for each basket they make, because it won’t affect the outcome of the game, and helps them feel like they’re contributing. He takes it a little farther, but I’ll leave that for the reader to investigate if interested. (For anyone who doesn’t know, Tosh is a comedian)
AAMB Boiler - January 4, 2012
Thanks man.
Completely Serious is one of my favs, too.
Brendan O'Hare - January 4, 2012
Double Standards
“Greg Stiemsma is whiter than death’s light.” If somebody wrote So and So is Blacker than midnight it would be a problem. I’m so sick of the double standards as well the PC thing. The fact that you Jeff has to tell people to be PC is a problem.
Steal by Bird - January 4, 2012
so you want PC but then you don’t? that’s confusing
Jeff Clark - January 4, 2012
I don't want PC. The fact that we have to tell people is sad.
I don’t take offense someone be called “white than deaths light” I’m just sick of the double standards.
Steal by Bird - January 4, 2012
fair enough
Jeff Clark - January 4, 2012
BTW- his name is Brendan, atleast according to the information below.
lygafe - January 4, 2012
at least [ sorry for the typo]
lygafe - January 4, 2012
Agree 100% with Steal.
There seems to be a quick trigger here for comments that don’t meet some bizarre standard of inoffensiveness, a zeal for shutting people down if their comments aren’t lubricated with niceness.
And meanwhile, the author of this article essentially called the majority of Celtics fans white racists by saying “we” when he really meant “I.” Personally, I find it offensive that he assumes to know what’s going on in my head when I watch basketball.
Cousin It - January 4, 2012
I KNOW WHAT GOES ON IN YOUR HEAD!
Brendan O'Hare - January 4, 2012
Controversy = great journalism. Glad you floated a high fast ball over the center of the plate.
I like him because he hustles and blocks shots and has a better midrange than RR. All of Stimpy’s shots were swishes.
johnnymost - January 4, 2012
Controvery = great journalism?
That’s ridiculous. Sensationalism kills good journalism, rational analysis, etc.
Cousin It - January 4, 2012
Thanks johnnymost?
I think
Brendan O'Hare - January 4, 2012
PS – another reason why I miss Johnny Most. Never knew when watching on the radio….
johnnymost - January 4, 2012
exactly
When he referred to “McFilthy” and “McNasty” I assumed they were both Irish.
Boris Badenov - January 4, 2012
I think
the Steamers race or him being a cult here is not that important, what is important and the bottom line is if he can play the game of basketball at the NBA level and if he can help remedy the C’s lack of depth at center both short term this year and the need for a center of the future long term as the C’s seek to rebuild.
Though its still early in the season and we have not seen alot of Greg long term to properly judge him as a NBA caliber basketball player, he so far has shown potential to be a solid center on both the offensive and defensive ends of the court.
Considering that’s exactly what the C’s need currently and down the line, Greg could be a gift sent down from heaven for the C’s and us fans, if he continues to progress and can bloom into a solid serviceable center .
I think we all should just be happy and give praise to Ainge for scouting Greg and signing him to possibly fill the teams need for a legit center, which are rare players in this age of the NBA to find , let alone acquire.
fordescort - January 4, 2012
+1
mmmmm - January 4, 2012 via iPhone app
Humans have been tribal since the beginning of time.
Nothing all that odd about it. Humans have been tribal since the beginning of time. All of them, not just whites. You look at prize fights (or most any endeavor) and blacks are rooting for the black entrants, etc. With sports teams, people transcend tribal affiliation to a degree, as the local team becomes their ‘tribe’, at least for two hours. As Jeff pointed out here:
I don’t think white players are seen as confused; possibly somewhat awkward though, but I don’t even think it’s really awkward. I think people simply recognize that as group averages go, blacks are more explosively athletic than are whites, and is the reason that such a small percentage of the country is so dominant in sports that require explosive athleticism (sprinting and jumping). It’s why people of west african ancestry have dominated olympic sprinting events (and basketball and football) for generations now.
Mencius - January 4, 2012
Environmental factors play a major role, hence the amount of European white players.
jakeshuttlesworth - January 4, 2012 via mobile
I'm not saying white guys can't play.
I’m saying blacks have better explosive athleticism (manifesting in sprinting faster and jumping higher), which is an obvious advantage, and which is why such a small percentage of the population is so dominant in sports requiring explosive athleticism.
Mencius - January 4, 2012
maybe...would like to some data, but you maybe right...
more interestingly…there are many (perhaps the majority) of players who are of mixed races and therefore the argument is essentially moot. Why would we throw Blake Griffin or Deron Williams into one bucket, and not another? How do we define race? IMO race is an archaic concept from a physiological perspective (even though its still relevant sociologically) since at this point in the progression of Humanity everyone is mixed at some level. But even at a less philosophical level, clearly, many many players are mixed…so measuring the impact of race as a single factor in basketball ability is essentially impossible.
jakeshuttlesworth - January 4, 2012
All one needs is a functioning pair of eyeballs to see that there is a racial component to athelticism.
As to race being a social construct at this point, physical anthropologists have no issue in identifying which ancestral continental group one comes from (and I’m speaking of identifying modern humans). Geneticists would have no difficulty at all identifying same.
Sure, there’s no clear boundary demarcating that this stops here, and this starts there, but in the same way that historical averages of weather in a given region, say New England is different than the weather in the Mid-Atlantic, or Florida for that matter, they are in fact obviously different, without having a clear line of demarcation.
Anyway, what further proof do you need than your eyes to tell you that blacks have better explosive athleticism than whites. How would you account for the finals of virtually every 100M dash in the last umpteen Olympiads being comprised of ALL people of West African ancestry. If the results are the same across space and time, the extraordinary claim would be to say that what you see is not so. That would be what would require the extraordinary evidence. Otherwise, the working hypothesis is that what your eyes tell you are so, is in fact the case, unless proven otherwise.
It is only in matters such as these that people seem to willfully suspend coming to the obvious conclusions that your own eyeballs tell you.
And none of this is even making any sort of value judgement (other than more athleticism is better in sports where it is an obvious advantage to have it, like sprinting, jumping, and basketball). It is simply acknowledging what your eyes see.
Mencius - January 4, 2012
Agree, at least in part
It’s clear that most of the great basketball players today are not white. And that’s a valid and possibly interesting discussion (e.g., if you’re an anthropologist), because it deals with a known reality.
But when I watch a game, I am not thinking about that issue. Why would I? It has no relevance to my thinking/feeling about the Celtics. Stiemsma’s performance has nothing to do with his race, until and unless you get into that side discussion of race performance. In-game, I’m thinking about the team, the game at hand, the playoffs, years to come, etc., etc. Not race.
So the argument that we who are objecting here are also “racial”, or that we are ignoring reality, is a bit specious. OF COURSE I/we recognize race, understand the issues, know that the NBA is loaded with black talent, etc., etc. Our point is: that has nothing to do with the game of basketball per se. And we are not thinking about that side issue when we think about Stiemsma or any other player we happen to see.
JR99 - January 4, 2012
Interesting points, but there's more than this false concept of "race" at play
Why are most of the 100M dash winners from the USA, Canada and Jamaica as opposed to Africa? Again, there seems to be other factors at play here. It’s never as simple as black and white :)
jakeshuttlesworth - January 4, 2012
White men can´t jump?
I disagree, my eyes tell me black people have about the same athleticism as white people. If you look at soccer, for example, there are many white players who are just as athletic as black players.
I think it has more to do with perception, priorities and upbringing.
Black people are mostly seen (sold) as more athletic, and white players are seen (sold) as strategic thinkers, hard workers and teamplayers, so young, black players tend to receive special attention from a young age by youth coaches, scouts and their environment. After all, basketball, from the top down, prioritizes athleticism (you can´t teach height or speed, but you can teach tactics). People on the grassroots level and above are just as concerned with finding the next big thing as the NBA GMs are.
Likewise, these kids and their environment identify themselves more with the black NBA players, and the most athletically gifted of them prioritize basketball over other sports.
How many black NFL quarterbacks are in the HOF? All the stereotypes you normally associate with white people are considered as very important for the NFL quarterback position. Strategic thinkers, good leaders. The white, athletically gifted kid´s dad wants him to play football, his coach wants him for the position, he gets all the support from his mentors, the recognition by his equals, he´ll choose football. If he´s talented enough, he will invest time, sweat, and probaly money into becoming an NFL quarterback . At some point in his personal development, he starts wanting to be smart and a “good leader”, if only to keep the situation, or the “dream”, alive. He will work on these skills on his own just to fulfill his role.
It´s a matter of role idendity, instilled form a very young age, and lack of awareness on this subject, among all of us, that leads to the imbalances of black and white top athletes in certain sports, in my opinion.
And that´s the real racism. The subtle way we put people into roles, socially and culturally, based on the color of their skin. It´s everywhere, all the time (although I´d say it is changing), it´s even in your post (and to be clear, I really don´t think you are racist). If you´re black, and want to make it big, you either become a singer, a comedian or a basketball player. If you´re white, you become a politician, manager or NFL quarterback. We don´t even question this role perception, it´s cultural, too subtle.
That´s why the increased attention for a guy like Stiemsma in the bigger, social picture is inherently racist, in my opinion. We expect NBA players to be black, because everything the sport prioritizes is associated with “the black role”, and a white guy with some kind of potential is seen as an oddity. I´m sure that we (and I mean most black and white people) would act pretty much the same if the next quarterback phenom is black.
Casperian - January 4, 2012
Sorry for the typo/grammar
I really hate that I can´t edit my post on the comments section.
Casperian - January 4, 2012
People tend to generalize their schemas and outlooks on to everyone else. Attributions are assumed. Thus, people who view race as an important part of their perceptions, reactions, and behaviors within the social world will assume others do too (for good or bad). Likewise, those that don’t put much importance on race (either through enlightenment or naiveté) will assume others feel the same. This, of course, is only my generalization and assumption of the world.
Jon Niednagel - January 4, 2012 via mobile
On a very basic and obvious level
although it may not come off properly, the truth is, based on nothing but numbers, white people do not look like NBA players.
Therefore, we do not expect white people to be NBA-level basketball players.
Hence, a white person immediately becomes something of an underdog in basketball, just by being white.
People also love to root for an underdog.
And when a white person is actually good at basketball, it IS unusual, hence the increased attention
KGHurtYourFeelings - January 4, 2012
Oh. These articles should have comments blocked.
Boston has the last baseball team to integrate.
Boston has the first hockey team to have a black player.
Boston has one of the best basketball teams in history with both black and white standouts.
I’m just not gonna click on articles that mention race anymore. Not in basketball…there’s something between stating the obvious and having a topic as thin as cardboard.
Stereotypes don’t exist for me. Plenty of black people skateboard and listen to rock or do violin or SOMETHING “UNUSUAL” as if what is usual actually matters—and get harassed about it because they don’t fit a mold or are “Acting White” as if this is a thing, as if “White” is how you act just like “Black” is how you act. That’s when this gets harmful. Or, Asians can’t rap and NEVER fail out (they do, go to UMass Boston or look up Model Minority on youtube). That’s another one. It’s stupid.
I’m glad this guy is being useful :D. I can’t give up my faith in the Celtics as long as people play defense. It doesn’t matter if they cheer more because a guy is the cute underdog, or just because a fan maybe relates more to a certain player or can more easily see themselves in that player’s jersey. I’m a chick, and if Maya Moore became the first female Boston Celtic, you’re damn RIGHT I would flip over a golf cart whenever she hit a three and do backflips.
YeahTommyB4ZGermansGetThere - January 4, 2012
Also, I mercifully have heard less of him in recent years, but all I remember of Eminem is a rat-voiced homophobic jerk.
YeahTommyB4ZGermansGetThere - January 4, 2012
Also, I mercifully have heard less of him in recent years, but all I remember of Eminem is a rat-voiced homophobic jerk.
YeahTommyB4ZGermansGetThere - January 4, 2012
I wanted to get this in all day...
but couldn’t log in earlier.
In Bill Russell’s book, Red and Me, he mentioned a time a white person he once met said to him that he doesn’t see color when he looks at people.
Bill’s response was that there must be something wrong with him then (paraphrase)….Russell’s intention…. black and white are factors ( in some way, shape, or form) in decision making by all people.
Though the original comment was well intended, I think that is an honest reaction by Bill Russell.
Tom Halzack - January 5, 2012
Bulls fans used to chant the name of Granville Waiters,
who was black, because he was rarely seen except during blow outs, and also because he was very distinctive due to premature balding. Personally, I’m embarassed by the way Scalabrine’s name is chanted, but it certainly isn’t because anyone thinks he is a good basketball player.
And from what I have seen, Stiemsma may be a fan favorite because he playing well at the center position, and Boston desperately needs a center.
Tim S. - January 7, 2012
You must Login with your SB Nation account and be a member of CelticsBlog to post a comment.