Elsa - Getty Images
Give me something to work with here guys.
The Celtics are off to their worst start since the debacle that was the 2006-07 season. As a result, we've seen something from that season emerge that we haven't really seen in the Big 3 era. Moral victories.
Celtics’ comeback fizzles in loss to Oklahoma City - The Boston Globe
"Boy I thought we did a lot of good things, again, and it’s frustrating,’’ Celtics coach Doc Rivers said. "Our turnovers are killing us. We’re just trying to will the team, do too much. It’s not like anybody is trying to be selfish. The way you win is with execution.’’
Pierce sees a few hopeful signs - The Boston Globe
"At the end of the day, none of us in here likes to lose,’’ he said. "That’s the frustrating part. From every win you can take some positives, and from losses you can take some positives. "I think I like where we’re headed. You know, it’s just little things that are really killing us. Turnovers, obviously, are killing us. We have to keep teams out of transition, control that a little better - I think we’ll be great. But you have to go out there and do it.’’
Of course, we all know that another word for "moral victory" is "loss." But there does seem to be some method to this line of propaganda.
Basketball is a game largely built on confidence. Shooting with confidence just tends to make the ball go in more often. I think it has something to do with visualizing success or some psychological stuff that I don't fully understand. Confident teams are aggressive teams and aggressive teams get to the ball more, get more calls, and get more breaks. That is just how it works.
From the day Kevin Garnett and Ray Allen walked in the door, this team has had swagger to spare. They didn't want to hear about moral victories or excuses or any such signs of weakness. Losses and losing streaks were explained away as "slumps" and "flipping off the switch."
Now this team doesn't seem to know where the switch is. They know full well the end is near for this group and that mentality has seeped into the locker room as one giant built in excuse. That negative undertone is threatening to derail this season completely.
So you can kind of see what the coach and captain are trying to do here. They are trying to stem the tide and inject a little bit of positive vibe into the locker room. You want to challenge your team to make no excuses, but with 5 straight losses and a dreadful 4-8 record, you can't afford to have the team give up. So they take what positives they can from this game (and games against the Knicks and Heat) and use that to motivate the team going forward.
It isn't ideal, but it is the best shot they've got right now. Mercifully the next 3 games are against teams that they should be able to get a few wins against. The Suns and Raptors have the same 4 wins as us and the Wizards have just one. If they can't win those games... well, I'd rather not think about that right now.
They just need to keep telling themselves: "We're good enough, we're smart enough, and gosh darn it, people like us."
0 recs | 80 comments
One of the things KG brought in...
… was that there is no such thing as an acceptable loss. I wonder if they still hate losing as much, as they used to?
European NBA fan - January 17, 2012
What happened to
no shots at our basket even if the ref blew his whistle?
Gone, just like the “No Excuses” approach.
Casperian - January 17, 2012
Not gone, KG still does that. Stiemsma has picked up the habit as well.
.
We are still well represented with the blocking of shots after the whistle is blown.
GetYourSoxOn - January 17, 2012
Who?
Is Steisma still on the team?
green solution - January 17, 2012
Im just waiting for the turning point
CBleedsGreeN - January 17, 2012 via mobile
"... from losses you can take some positives..."
Doc, name some positives, please…I mean real meaningful positives.
Please stop fooling yourself. The current line up isn’t going anywhere, except South. They have no inside presence. KG is not nearly the player he used to be. Only 9 shots for Ray was pathetic, partly because OKC used a quick defender on Ray but also because there wasn’t a good screen for Ray the whole game. When Ray was open, the ball was not there. It seemed the ball was always half a second late. Man …
It was obvious KG was cold. Why went to him repeatedly? Having confidence in you star is one thing, but recognizing the reality is another.
getthat18now - January 17, 2012
There is
no turning point. No corner to turn. No switch to flip!
Yes PP looked a little better. MP looked good. KG was horrible. Never seen him get so many shots blocked, altered etc. Ray was horrible. How many lazy passes did he throw away. He’s been very sloppy all year in that respect.
A ten point loss AT HOME, is a 25-30 point blowout on the road. There’s no morale victory there!
PLEASE move on with a transition to our youth. It won’t be pretty either, but I’d rather yell and cheer my butt off for guys that can’t get the job done due to inexperience, rather than just being slow, old and appearing apathetic.
OhioGreen - January 17, 2012
10 games in and these supposed 'fans' are sounding like ESPN analysts...
Giving up on the Celtics after 10 games.
KG+Pierce obviously took it too easy in the off season.
A nice stretch of lesser teams coming up to get the juices flowing and start executing.
Turnovers and subsequent points scored by the Thunder off these turnovers is what lost us this game. Our defense was very good for the most part- we just threw the ball away so many times and it’s going to get punished by a top 3 NBA team.
Down three points with 2 minutes left after Westbrook+Durant were shooting well from mid range is not a complete disaster.
Plenty of things to be positive about this loss- some people are just so set on this team being a failure that they refuse to see, let alone look for signs of improvement.
Best loss of the year against one of the best teams in the league.
Good things are going to happen for the Celtics soon-prepare for a nice winning stretch.
Chambers - January 17, 2012
Why is it always the so-called optimists who call out other fans?
The so-called pessimists attack the guys who are actually responsible for the current situation.
It´s a strange kind of grassroots Inquisition.
“You is no believer, you is bad, bad fan.”
Back in the day, before the internet, every fan had the right to be angry at his team if it didn´t perform. Nowadays, you will always find someone ready to make you feel guilty if you just can´t believe.
Casperian - January 17, 2012
So...your point is?
Ten games in and you don’t expect fans to get defensive? Is it really fair to make judgement calls on a teams season after ten games only two games with a complete roster hitting the court?
If your’e going to makes statements, good or bad, you’re going to get called out.
It’s not about being a believer, it’s about giving a fair opportunity to the players and organisation. If we are sitting at a .500 record in 40 games, then the scenario changes.
Throw aside the optimism/pessimism crap and be a realist-the critics (for the most part) are waving the white flag way too early.
Chambers - January 17, 2012
It would be too soon if the expectation was championship contender
But a year older than the season which saw us kicked handily out of the second round, down Jeff Green, I’m thinking many of us were expecting not terribly much. So when we’re sitting at .333-and-under 20% through the season, it’s not a matter of suddenly jumping ship, but of having our expectations confirmed—albeit a fair bit worse than we’d hoped.
The fact is that we were talking about 3-4 year windows when this first started. Now we’re 5 years in, so the default isn’t a great team.
Ben Buchanan - January 17, 2012
This is exactly where I am. Didn't expect much. Although they have gotten off to a worse start than I expected
vinnie - January 17, 2012
Bogus
If I say “this team can win a championship”, nobody´s calling me out, it rains TPs. I expect you to have an open mind. You know, this may be hard to grasp, but the people you call “supposed fans” also want this team to win. How about tackling the actual points instead of attacking the fanhood of people who just don´t agree with your opinion?
If we are sitting at .500 in 40 games, it´s too late to do anything. I feel pretty realistic after following the nba and sports in general for 20, the careers of our stars for 15 and this particular group for 4-5 years when I say “The chances that this team wins a championship are very slim”.
The last thing we need is not open criticism, it´s a fight among ourselves.
Casperian - January 17, 2012
I agree with you
For what it is worth I agree with you. I’d like to have the kind of blind optimism that so many others here seem to have. I don’t. I don’t see this team as anything better then a 7th or 8th seed and a first round wipe out if we even see the post season.
It doesn’t make you any less of a fan regardless of what other here want to call you. I have been a Celtic’s fanatic for well over 30 years pushing 40 years. I have never once rooted for them to lose a game. I have watched every single game expect maybe four or five since NBA league pass allowed me to get then in my transplanted home down in NC.
We are fans just as much as those who blindly believe this team is still a legitimate title contender with nothing to go on by past performances.
CelticsFanNC - January 17, 2012
now that's bogus
“If I say "this team can win a championship", nobody´s calling me out, it rains TPs”
Give me a break, let’s be realistic.
Their chances are slim, but they do have a chance at winning.
Who would have picked the Mavs to win last year?
It’s not attacking people who don’t agree with my opinion, it’s calling people out who are completely writing this team off after 10 games.
You don’t have to think they are going to win it all, but they are being hugely underrated on a sample size of 10 games.
As a Celtics fan I’m used to the panic and online seizures/meltdowns that most fans have. Then the C’s do better than expected and everyone happily jumps on the bandwagon again.
We can agree to disagree that 10 games without a complete roster for 80% of the season so far is/is not enough time to judge how good this team can actually be.
Chambers - January 17, 2012
I picked the Mavs in February
If they don´t think they can win it all, I want them to blow it up, as I think it helps us more than a second round exit.
I´m not panicking, I don´t have a meltdown, and I was on that bandwagon when we only won 22 games. You are the one who is exaggerating and belittling the emotion of people who are just as much fan as you are.
Since 10 games is apparently not enough, which timeframe do you suppose is acceptable until people are allowed to say they don´t believe anymore?
Casperian - January 17, 2012
Blow it up and get exactly what in return?
So first they can’t win after 10 games, and now you want to blow it up?
Can you give some suggestions as to what we would get in return for these ‘retirees’?
We have one season left and then we have more cap space than any other team.
Should we just blow it up for the sake of doing so?
Again, 10 games is simply not enough for me to make a judgement.
This team has 50 games to get its act together with one goal: win 16 games in four playoff series against the Heat, Bulls, Magic and then the West Coast champs.
It’s too early for me to decide whether this is possible and what percentage chance we have of doing this. I’ll wait till we are 40 games in and see our injury situation, the form of our core unit and bench.
These are things which change so drastically over 50 games and someone who follows the NBA and the Celtics as you suggest you do should know this more than anyone.
Chambers - January 17, 2012
Again, exaggerations,
not answering my question, not arguing the point that after 40 games, it´s too late for us to change our fate, just snarky comments from a supposedly moral high ground. What makes you believe this team is better than last year?
Don´t answer that, I don´t have any interest in an internet fight.
You can believe in this team all you want, it´s your right to have an opinion, but please be fair enough to respect the fact that just because others have a different opinion, they´re not less of a fan than you are.
That´s what I´ve criticized, not your opinion per se.
Casperian - January 17, 2012
What does "blow it up" entail?
That means nothing without details.
mmmmm - January 17, 2012
You know exactly what it means
Do you want me to propose specific alternatives?
Would Danny listen? What´s the point?
Casperian - January 18, 2012
Ten guys on this blog would give ten different definitions of what 'blow it up' means.
I’m asking what yours is.
mmmmm - January 18, 2012
Not to nitpick, but you keep saying 10 games when it is 12
They are 4-8 — tied for 9th place in the east with Milwaukee and two games behind the powerful Cleveland Cavaliers for the 8th spot. They play more games at home in January than in any other month. They have played 7 home games already and are 3-4. They have not beaten anyone with a pulse. Their 4 wins have come against three of the worst teams in the NBA. Yes, it is early, but not that early. They have already played nearly 20 percent of the season. I wish I saw the things that others see to make them optimistic.
I see a KG who looks done and a Pierce who is struggling, probably from a combination of being out of shape and being older. I see a team that can bring it in spurts like the old Celtics, but only in spurts. I think that comes from being old and all of the miles they have on them. I don’t see any guys stepping off the bench to be world beaters (although Pietrus might). I see Bass starting to fall back to earth. They have a starting center who can bring it once or twice every 10 games, and who is an injury waiting to happen.
I could go on, but the bottom line is I have not seen one thing to make me think this team will win more than 35 games and be better than a 6th-8th seed, and likely a first round out.
vinnie - January 17, 2012
I'm almost writing them off....
after 10 horrible games this season, a pretty mediocre second half of last season, the fact that other teams in the Eastern Conference are younger, faster, more talented and just plain BETTER. I said they only had an outside shot of getting past Miami and Chicago last season and that was only if everything went perfectly which it obviously didn’t. Our core is a year older and a year closer to retirement. Losing Jeff Green was a huge blow. I see what I see and what I see is the “Over the Hioll Gang”.
Also bandwagon is misused. A bandwagon fan is one who jumps on when the team starts winning and then is no where to be found when things start to go bad. I for one am not going anywhere so I am not a bandwagon fan and resent the implication that I or anyone else who isn’t blindly optimistic is a bandwagon fan.
CelticsFanNC - January 17, 2012
The debate these days is kinda optimism vs pessimism
DA is neither optimistic nor pessimistic, he is realist.
He iw waiting some weeks to make his decision. If the team improves tremedously before the ASG, he will not make any major move. If the team doesn’t improve tremendously (and he feels they are done), he makes any moves he can to start the rebuilding process (read: “tanking”).
lepooo - January 17, 2012
Agree 100%
That is a fair route for Ainge to take.
He will give this core some more time to get back in the groove and start winning again.
If by lets say mid season they still appear in a funk then I think at that time he may think about blowing it up and jump starting the rebuilding process.
We just have to give it more time and let this play out before we know for sure though what route the C’s will be taking eventually come the latter part of the season.
fordescort - January 17, 2012
Actually
My guess is DA already thinks that the big 3 is done. If you look at the big picture (current season + end of last season and the defeat to the Heat), the team is clearly over.
IMO, he is actually waiting the deadline for two reasons:
- waiting for the other franchises to make their own minds (do they want to go for cap relief? need a veteran to go over the top?)
- waiting for the team to have a bad enough overall record to justifiy the big 3 blow up (no more “10 games sample is not enough” excuse)
He has said he is waiting and if it does not “improve”, he will look to make some moves. It says it all. The C’s are probably have some better nights, but they re gonna struggle to reach the 0.500 mark; DA is no fool, he knows struggling 0.500 teams don’t win rings. So… be ready to say goodbye to RA or Rondo (the best trade assest DA has right now).
lepooo - January 17, 2012
pessimism or realistic?
First off I think it is absolutely wrong to label fans bandwagon or less of a fan because they look at these Celtics through the windshield rather then the rear view mirror. The rear view mirror may offer a nicer view but it isn’t where you’re headed.
I don’t look at mine and other views of these Celtic’s as being pessimistic I look at it as being realistic. It’s my opinion. That doesn’t make it set in stone or right but that is what I believe. I don’t think it is in any way, shape or form less realistic then those who view this team as a title contender in 2012.
I’d love to see them find the fountain of youth and go on a run but I don’t foresee it happening for various reasons. We are starting almost every single game will inferior athletes at 4 of 5 starting spots. Our best scorers aren’t what they were a couple of years ago so we struggle to score. Our defense isn’t what it once was due to poor rebounding(age), lack of quickness(age) and slow rotations(age). The schedule gets harder then it has been and what again is our record?? I just do not see a major turn around happening. I’d love to be wrong. Nothing would make me happier. I dont think I will be proven to be wrong.
That doesn’t make me less of a fan. It may be a pessimistic view in some peoples eyes but in my eyes and the eyes of most so called NBA insiders and experts it is a realistic point of view. We’re too old to compete with the big dogs.
CelticsFanNC - January 17, 2012
Weren't you the guy who 5 games ago said they were going to lose 5 straight?
And be 4-8? Not that I am happy with it, but kudos to you for being spot on. I initially picked them for 6-6 through the first 12 and did not believe they could be this bad.
vinnie - January 17, 2012
wasn't me
I didn’t predict they’d lose 5 in a row. I root for them to win every single game and don’t normally look to far ahead at the schedule. I see a team right now that is middle of the pack at best but I’d be thrilled if they managed to run off ten wins in a row and proved me wrong.
CelticsFanNC - January 18, 2012
well said
You make very good points here. Rebounding, quickness and rotations are non-existent with Doc’s fab four in there.
green solution - January 17, 2012
I prefer ugly wins over moral victories
When the Celtics beat the Nets and Wizard, some complained the team winning ugly. Man, I rather we had won ugly in any of these 5 losses.
getthat18now - January 17, 2012
you forget something coach.
give the rookies more PT and rebounds plssss coach.
reb0undwins18 - January 17, 2012
Unlikely
Of course you should and anyone else would. But I don’t see Doc doing that. He loves his starters/vets – even those that are on other teams now (Perk).
green solution - January 17, 2012
Contenders
will come a’knockin’ for the big three.
ANSWER THY CALL!!!
Al Woodal - January 17, 2012
They looked better.
They really played better last night and still lost by 9 points at home.
IMO it is hard to over come opposing teams having better, younger, stronger, quicker athletes at four of five starting positions on the floor almost every single night. Due to this they have no margin for error. That why I believe even if they play their best basketball we wont see them going on any long winning streaks.
CelticsFanNC - January 17, 2012
This is true- but if the Mavs can win in 2011, we can win in 2012.
It’s just going to take time to transition Bass, Wilcox, Dooling and Pietrus into our system.
Chambers - January 17, 2012
difference
The difference is the Mav’s had a HOF player in his prime. None of our future HOFers are still in their prime. The Mav’s had numerous very good to great perimeter shooters, we only have a couple.
CelticsFanNC - January 17, 2012
We have 4 All stars....the Mavs had one.
We have 3 HOF’ers, 2 of whom are ranked in the top 25 players in the NBA, and a point guard who is in the top 20 players and top 5 point guards.
We have a much stronger bench.
Perimeter shooters?
Ray
Pierce
Pietrus
Dooling
There are always going to be 2 guys on the floor with Rondo who can drain it from outside.
Our defense is much better than the Mavericks.
You commented on the hardship of playing younger, faster, stronger teams.
The Mavericks solved this puzzle.
The Celtics can possibly solve this puzzle.
Chambers - January 17, 2012
I just disagree
This year we will be lucky to have one All-Star.
I’m just telling it as I see it. The run as a legitimate title contender ended 2 years ago. Last season was fools gold and this season is the end of the line.
What do you expect in year 5 of a 3 year plan?
CelticsFanNC - January 17, 2012
Love the optimism but you are giving the Mavs too little credit
The mavs defense last year was nowhere near as good as the Celtics defense last year. However the mavs defense last year is much better than the Celtics defense this year (granted 10 game sample size). Also being in an athletes prime is a huge deal and Dirk was toward the tail end of his. If this Celtics team was in it’s prime it would destroy everything in it’s path. Also the mavs had more depth and versatility than the Celtics of this year. I do agree that this team is still capable of flipping the switch, the problem is it could only get themas far as ECF (and even that would take a whole bunch of things falling into place at the right time and a ton of luck) but not a championship.
kg2128 - January 17, 2012
How can you compare 2011 Dirk to 2012 KG/PP/RA?
Do you really think RA, PP or KG have the same level of play right now than Dirk last year? You didn’t watch the Mavs a lot, did you?
lepooo - January 17, 2012
You mean 3 former all stars and one current all star -- Rondo
vinnie - January 17, 2012
Haha Great Title
I am starting to notice that although Ray is in great cardiovascular shape, he bring this VERY LITTLE besides his shooting. His lazy passes are getting tired. Those back to back 3’s to seal the game last night were pretty annoying.
I love these guys and it’s tough to let them go, but it has to be done.
rickyfan3.0... - January 17, 2012
I think doc should hire jerry sloan.. run some plays that doesn’t allow paul " the turnover" pierce to handle the ball. It’s in ainge’s head that this team needs a move. If its kg for a a David lee or ray to the spurs for a pick and a young player
jdunn123 - January 17, 2012
As Johnny Most used to say
“It’s All Over”
It was a great ride. I think the next era is beginning
johnnymost - January 17, 2012 via mobile
we should have kevin mchale as the celtics head coach instead of doc rivers.
the man has problems playing the rookies and rebound is always an issue of the celtics.
reb0undwins18 - January 17, 2012
our rookies suck- that's why they don't play (for the most part)
Rockets can keep Mchale.
some guys are born to play, not coach.
Chambers - January 17, 2012
just a general warning/reminder
I’m getting a little tired of reading things like “so called fans” and “you aren’t a true fan if…”
bottom line, that line of discussion (regardless of what your opinion of the team is or how you chose to root yourself) is disrespectful and not welcome here
follow the team as you want to, have any opinion you want to, do not presume you can tell others how they should follow their team
hope you understand and thanks in advance for remembering to respect each other
Jeff Clark - January 17, 2012
wow
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech
i understand the ‘no swearing’ thing, but this is getting pretty ridiculous – let people say what they want jeff, it’s just a blog.
mcpu40 - January 17, 2012
It is just a blog
But it does get tiring for those of us who are constantly told we aren’t real fans because we don’t believe the Celts are going to win the title this year.
vinnie - January 17, 2012
Right on the mark
Great point Vinnie I also find that strange. We all look at the team in different ways but the ‘more positive’ fans seem to think others have no merit.
A perfect example is the play of Jermaine O’Neal. Earlier in the season the ‘training camp MVP’ was struggling and producing next to nothing especially on offense. Not good for a player getting the full MLE. Then he had one great game and people were on here saying ‘where are all the JO haters now, you were so wrong’ and all those things. Now of course since then JO has been mostly terrible but those same people are quiet now.
Looking at the team and expecting success does not make anyone less of a fan. To me a team with a top NBA head coach, 3 future Hall of Famers and a current all star should be better than 4-8. They should be able to beat teams other than the dregs of the league on a consistent basis. Call me crazy for having such high expectations I guess…
warnerjohn - January 17, 2012
+1
agree
CelticsFanNC - January 17, 2012
I agree 100%
that fans should be allowed to voice their displeasure or repeatedly assert that this team is done.
But on a blog that is supposedly targeting people who root for the celtics to win, you guys have to understand that your constant, repetitive, doom harbingering, while your right, is going to rub a lot of people the wrong way.
I don’t see what the problem is. When people disagree over things they are passionate about emotions run high.
I, personally, am pretty agitated, and for the first time in 3 years, upset that I spent my money on the league pass.
I don’t think this team is going to win a championship. But I wouldn’t say it is impossible, and I don’t think they are going to miss out on the playoffs either. I’d probably guess a second-round out.
But it doesn’t matter. At this point in the season, it is early. And it doesn’t look good, but IMO, it doesn’t look completely hopeless.
And one of the best parts of being a fan is that you can hold on to a little bit of hope until you are officially eliminated. You never know…That little bit of faith makes everything worthwhile…until it isn’t.
But if you really have zero faith in this team…really, why watch? If you know for certain that you are going to be disappointed…what’s the point? Why do that to yourself? You have to enjoy something for it to be worthwhile, right?
Again, this team is really frustrating me, but I have to give myself a little bit of hope. Even though realistically I know our chances look pretty slim. But I also know that nobody on the celtics blog wants to hear that.
KGHurtYourFeelings - January 17, 2012
why I will continue to watch....
in-spite of my feeling that they are most likely done.
I love the Boston Celtic’s. Even though i believe they are probably done I still root for them to win every single game. I still appreciate every single glimpse I get of what they were a couple of years ago even if those glimpses seem to happen less often and don’t sustain themselves.
I watch because I watched Hondo get old but I still appreciated him up until the day he retired. I watch because I celebrated when Bird and company made us contenders for the better part of a decade and in 1987 showed me the best basketball and the greatest team I have ever seen in my lifetime.
I watch because I cried the day Len Bias and Reggie Lewis left us prematurely. I watch because I endured during the dark days of Pitino and the Fool’s Gold of Antione, Paul and Obie. I watch because I watched when the not ready for prime time Celtics of Jefferson, West and Allen had the worst season in Celtic history. I watched the revival after 20 years of futility. I watch because I believe in Danny Ainge and Doc Rivers and Rajon Rondo. I watch because I appreciate all of the great moments brought to all of us by Kevin Garnett, Ray Allen and especially Paul Pierce.
I watch because I am a Celtic Fan and that will never change whether we are competing for NBA titles or building our next contender.
CelticsFanNC - January 17, 2012
I watch because I love the Boston Celtics and want them to win
I have half-season tickets and have had them for 10+ years. I had season tickets right after I got out of college in the late 70’s through mid-80’s. I have followed the team since I was 7 years old. I listened to Johnny Most on the radio every game. I will admit that it is hard to watch this year, because there is nothing for me to be overly excited about — maybe Rondo’s play and hoping to get something out of Pietrus or the rookies, but not a whole lot. However, I will watch or be at every game this year.
vinnie - January 17, 2012
umm, no
my blog, my rules
http://www.celticsblog.com/2012/1/1/2674631/new-year-same-golden-rules-on-celticsblog
and the restriction of freedom of speech accusation is ridiculous as always – you can say whatever you want any time you want, and I can ban you from my site if you don’t follow the rules you agreed to when you created a username on my site – simple as that
Jeff Clark - January 17, 2012
tough guy - ban me -
- freedom of speech isn’t ridiculous – jeff -
threatening to ban someone is
further, i’m not trying to start trouble – i just find that the posts that have a little bite and flavor to them, get conversations going – posts that say
mcpu40 - January 17, 2012
not a threat, just stating facts
I said your ACCUSATION is ridiculous, don’t put words in my mouth
Jeff Clark - January 17, 2012
A few things...
These are from our rules, that everyone should perhaps read:
That should cover just about everything in this particular conversation.
Roy_Hobbs - January 17, 2012
Well...
if you have to look at moral victories instead of actually winning games its usually not a good sign for a team.
Good news is , its still early in the season and the C’s do have time to right this ship and still have a good season.
We should no more in the weeks ahead and around the trade deadline.
fordescort - January 17, 2012
Not to get off topic but am I the only one that thinks having an all star break is ridiculous and shows sterns greed.. instead of evenly laying out games and giving players days off in between let’s cram as many games in & an all star break so we can get more money. Cause we didn’t solve a thing with the lock out.
jdunn123 - January 17, 2012
STOP talking and PLAY!!
Pietrus & Cream - January 17, 2012
A loss is a loss is a loss
I could be pollyanna and say we proved we can hang around the best even when we lack conditioning. I could say PP surged for a couple of three or four minute spans. I could say how blazingly quick Rondo is. I could say we rebounded better.
And all of that might be true. But the final score tells the story.
Rondo’s one man fast breaks point out one of our biggest flaws: speed.
JO’s inability to finish around the rim points out another: we don’t have a low post game.
How many games in before we start saying KG “can’t anymore” instead of KG is “getting into game shape”? As pointed out in an excellent article: our defense may now be simply mediocre and certainly is not feared by our opposition.
No speed. No low post game. A mediocre defense. We need to discuss making the playoffs, not winning championships.
I hope I eat my words. And I’ll gladly accept the label of pessimist. But if we are sitting at the 7th or 8th seed (or worse) come trade deadline time, can we blame Ainge for trading for whatever he can get, for starting our rebuilding process a few months ahead of time? It would be painful, but worse than a first round defeat of the big three?
CelticsFan616 - January 17, 2012
KG and Ray = main reasons we lost that game
turnovers and lack of offensive production from those guys plus mediocre defense. Is it fair to get mad at guys because they got old and lost a step or two? Maybe not. Maybe we should be mad at danny for doing what he said he wouldn’t which is riding his aging stars into the sunset. Honestly, there are no easy fixes here. There were flashes last night of offensive continuity and then they quickly disappeared in a barrage of turnovers. The play that stands out for me is Rondo losing the ball for no reason after we closed to 2 points in the 4th. Let’s not forget that OKC hit 4 out of their ass threes down the stretch. Yeah, our D could have been better on those but they were tough shots. I find it confusing to hear doc talk about execution on the one hand and not wanting to be a team that has to run a designed play every time on the other hand. Which is it? TO me the biggest problem for the past several years has been the offense and the fact that it takes us 22 seconds to run a play and get a shot off. we need to be freer offensively. All of that notwithstanding, if KG and JO can’t finish the play when they have point blank opps to dunk the ball.. well that comes back to being older and not having the physical gifts anymore. And there’s no amount of x’s and o’s that is going to change that. That’s what we’re all seeing and what’s frustrating us; the knowledlge that our stars can’t do it anymore.
Red2 - January 17, 2012
Unfortunately moral victories don't win titles.
Teams that think they might no longer be contenders will use moral victories as a scapegoat.
LarryBird33 - January 17, 2012
+1
fordescort - January 17, 2012
either do teams starting four players who are past their prime. You can get away with 2, maybe 3 if your other guys can cover for their athletic deficiencies but we don’t at present have that.
CelticsFanNC - January 17, 2012
A loss is a win!
We’re tied for the #8 pick in the draft! At #8, we should get a solid starter, maybe a potential star player.
Unfortunately, the Clippers’ pick is currently at #23.
In the second round, we currently have #38 (ours) and #45 (Cavs).
Let’s just hope that Pierce doesn’t single-handedly carry the team into mediocrity. Wait, is this 2005?
Eeyore III - January 17, 2012
Seems that we need a top six pick to get one of the good big guys.
You are right. A loss is a win. Might as well suk now. the 2012 draft is supposedly very deep.
tstorey1 - January 17, 2012
question??
Is is realistic to look at this team and believe it is going to be as good or better then they were last season or the previous season? Honestly. If it were anybody other then our beloved Celtic’s would anyone with any knowledge of the NBA believe that a team starting 4 guys who are past their prime and a all-star pass first PG are going to be as good or better then they were the previous season? Is that really even a realistic point of view if you look at it logically rather then as a fan of a particular team?
I don’t think it is. I don’t believe those of us who believe things aren’t likely to get much better this season should be viewed as anything but realistic. It is a realistic stance to take. I am sure we would to a man all love to be wrong.
CelticsFanNC - January 17, 2012
It depends on what
you mean by “realistic”.
Are we likely to be better than last year? Based on what I’ve seen so far, I’d say no.
But is it possible? Sure.
Maybe Rondo takes the step, Pierce returns to form from injury, and Ray continues to defy time. KG’s decline is minimal. The bench is improved and Bass figures out how to play defense while Pietrus becomes Posey 2.0 and Moore develops into a rookie surprise…
Is all that likely? No. But is it possible? Of course.
KGHurtYourFeelings - January 17, 2012
I'll settle for us to start making shots again.
Our ‘close in’ shooting has been attrocious.
The last few games we have actually been shooting better from outside the 3PT line!
I can’t remember such an extended stretch where each game I seem to watch half a dozen easy layups bounce in and out of the rim.
All that stuff sounds great. But ultimately, we gotta make shots. Its a make/miss league.
mmmmm - January 17, 2012
okay.
fair enough. I respect your optimism and hope beyond hope you are right and I am wrong.
CelticsFanNC - January 17, 2012
for the record,
I am not optimistic, in the truest sense of the word. I think we are a second round out. But it is just as silly for me to say that we are definitely finished and there’s no chance as it would be for me to guarantee a championship.
I do not think the Celtics are a realistic contender.
But I also don’t see what the point of constantly repeating that belief on a message board for Celtics fans.
KGHurtYourFeelings - January 17, 2012
the c’s have big issues=they are old and slow and small up front. they will play better as the year evolves but injuries can kill them. danny tried but chris paul and west said no and green got an aneurism. you can break up the team but you won’t get much in return. so we keep on truckin and these guys better learn how to score in the 1st quarter.
nazzbo - January 17, 2012
Three words
Time for overhaul.
SparzWizard - January 17, 2012
Isn't this up to Danny?
Wasn’t the Perkins trade a condemnation of the Celtics current situation? “We can’t beat the Heat or the Bulls?” We need a younger winger more than a 6 PPG guy? Look at the timing of the trade. This was some kind of vote of confidence on the part of the GM? Dump your center going into the playoffs?
Ainge has the same options that any GM has in his spot.
He has shown his desperation. Dump your center, resign Doc and try and trade anything he could to get his hands on to get Chris Paul.
Fans cry to blow it up or not blow it up. Fans cry to wait and see…..who cares? Ainge has been actively blowing it up for the last 9 months. You haven’t noticed?
The question is did he trade Perk to get Green because he thought Green + Rondo would get Paul?
If anyone thinks it is time to rebuild using the draft then…STOP hoping that the Celtics win ANY games. Go and be Danny Ainge for 30 minutes. When you come back, you will want the two Purdue guys and Steamer getting 43 minutes a game each. 4 and 62 here we come!
Cap space next year? For what? He needs to beat the Heat, the Bulls and the Thunder….keep thinking about how he is going to do that. We sold ourselves to the devil..we got a ring…here is the other side of the mountain and Danny, Doc and Rondo are all we got.
tstorey1 - January 17, 2012
"Wasn’t the Perkins trade a condemnation of the Celtics current situation?"
No.
That’s not at all what it was.
It was simply the result of:
a) We only had Perk for the next few months before we would lose him to free agency and
b) We had NO healthy center on the team and NO healthy backup SF behind Pierce.
The trade wasn’t some grand statement. It was just Danny’s hand being forced by circumstances to make the best deal he could get. Sure, part (a) was a ‘future at the cost of now’ issue, but (b) was very much a ‘need to win now and damn the future’ issue. So it’s not so simple as to say Danny’s eye was only on the future.
The trade looks bad because of things beyond Danny’s control (i.e. Green’s heart problem). But if he did not make the trade we would in all likelihood still not have Perk right now (due to free agency) and we would not be any better off. And we would have lost a TON more games last spring if we had had to keep playing Chris Johnson at C! Even though we ended up not having either Krstic or Green this season, we at least do retain the value of the 1st rd draft pick we also received. And there is a strong chance we can re-sign Green next year.
Even if the Clippers hold form and it’s ‘only’ a mid-low 1st rounder (i.e. around 20-ish), that’s still pretty significant value and can possibly be packaged with other assets (i.e. our own 1st rd pick or a player) to either move up or get someone via trade.
mmmmm - January 17, 2012
Need ANYTHING up front
I’d put Steimser and the tall Perdue guy JJ in there a ton. Like yesterday. Our front court has zero quickness and reaction time. Gonzo. Doc is in love with ghosts.
green solution - January 17, 2012
The rookies do not help
The other problem I see is that the rookies have nothing to add to the team, so that makes the current and long term situation even worse. Those kids can only become minor contributors off the bench!
ADS1 - January 17, 2012
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